[swift-evolution] Reconsider ++ and -- operators removal and prevent other well-known operators from change

[Austin Zheng]

I think a "community comments" period for each review is a perfectly fine idea :).

Doug Gregor's comments quoted below clearly state that accepted proposals are meant to be final, precisely in order to avoid unending back-and-forth counterproposals to things that people can never agree upon. However, there's a good argument that the first proposals should be re-opened up for community discussion, because they didn't go through the formal process.

Regarding "truly having a say": Swift is not designed by referendum; the core team takes community feedback into account but is not bound by it when making decisions re. the language. In every proposal rejection or acceptance so far popularity (or lack thereof) has only been one of the stated factors.

Best,
Austin

> On Jan 30, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Vanderlei Martinelli <vmartinelli at alecrim.com> wrote:
> 
> Strong -1 to people being so obtuse with other people discussing things in a discussion group. ;-)
> 
> OK. I got your point. A “community comments” period may be a good ideia, since "community" will not be used as a term to segregate those who not have truly a say.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> -- Vanderlei Martinelli
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Austin Zheng <austinzheng at gmail.com <mailto:austinzheng at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Strong -1 to this proposal.
> 
> If your code is in dire need of ++/--, you can always define them yourself using the language affordances. (Unlike, say, defining your own C-style for loop.)
> 
> Other than that, ++/-- were a crufty legacy carryover from C, and their disadvantages are adequately described in the rationale portion of the proposal.
> 
> ?? and ?: are in no imminent danger, and even if they were their removal should be debated on the merits of those specific operators.
> 
> Finally, if people are going to try and re-open the pre-SE-0005 proposals for retroactive discussion, maybe we should have a 'community comments' period for each of them and just get it over with.
> 
> Austin
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2016, at 10:12 AM, Vanderlei Martinelli via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello everybody.
>> 
>> I see Swift as a member of “C family" (a granddaughter/grandson of C, a daughter/son of Objective-C). OK, she/he is different and has her/his own personality like a daughter/son should be and have, but I still like to see Swift and recognize some traces that I know are things that became from C.
>> 
>> This said, I would like to say that after the removal of `++` and `--` my code becomes less readable and more prone to errors. There were two characters to differentiate an addition from a subtraction, now there is only one (`+= 1`, `-= 1`). Also the character keys are very close in the US keyboard so it is easier to make a mistake and is not as simple as the previous solution when I typed two times the same key. Using Erica's way of saying certain things: I do not love the removal of `++` and `--`.
>> 
>> I do not know how far the Swift is to the adolescence, but it is certain that teenagers are rebels. There's something very good at it. In most cases they are to be certain. But in some things they regret later. Now I see that many of us want to replace the `??` operator to something else. I'm wondering the next steps...  To replace the `&&`, `||` and `!` operator with `and`, `or`, `not`? I’m not "loving" this as well.
>> 
>> Are these changes really necessary for the Swift evolution? Is it the better path to deny its origin and to try to fix what is not broken? I would like you to think about it.
>> 
>> There are many other things that really need to be improved and repaired and other things needed to are created. Those mentioned here in this message does not seem to fit it.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -Van
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