[swift-evolution] Reconsider ++ and -- operators removal and prevent other well-known operators from change

Vanderlei Martinelli vmartinelli at alecrim.com
Sat Jan 30 13:41:19 CST 2016

Strong -1 to people being so obtuse with other people discussing things in
a discussion group. ;-)

OK. I got your point. A “community comments” period may be a good
ideia, since "community" will not be used as a term to segregate those who
not have truly a say.

-- Vanderlei Martinelli

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Austin Zheng <austinzheng at gmail.com> wrote:

> Strong -1 to this proposal.
> If your code is in dire need of ++/--, you can always define them yourself
> using the language affordances. (Unlike, say, defining your own C-style for
> loop.)
> Other than that, ++/-- were a crufty legacy carryover from C, and their
> disadvantages are adequately described in the rationale portion of the
> proposal.
> ?? and ?: are in no imminent danger, and even if they were their removal
> should be debated on the merits of those specific operators.
> Finally, if people are going to try and re-open the pre-SE-0005 proposals
> for retroactive discussion, maybe we should have a 'community comments'
> period for each of them and just get it over with.
> Austin
> On Jan 30, 2016, at 10:12 AM, Vanderlei Martinelli via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
> Hello everybody.
> I see Swift as a member of “C family" (a granddaughter/grandson of C, a
> daughter/son of Objective-C). OK, she/he is different and has her/his own
> personality like a daughter/son should be and have, but I still like to see
> Swift and recognize some traces that I know are things that became from C.
> This said, I would like to say that after the removal of `++` and `--` my
> code becomes less readable and more prone to errors. There were two
> characters to differentiate an addition from a subtraction, now there is
> only one (`+= 1`, `-= 1`). Also the character keys are very close in the US
> keyboard so it is easier to make a mistake and is not as simple as the
> previous solution when I typed two times the same key. Using Erica's way of
> saying certain things: I do not love the removal of `++` and `--`.
> I do not know how far the Swift is to the adolescence, but it is certain
> that teenagers are rebels. There's something very good at it. In most cases
> they are to be certain. But in some things they regret later. Now I see
> that many of us want to replace the `??` operator to something else. I'm
> wondering the next steps...  To replace the `&&`, `||` and `!` operator
> with `and`, `or`, `not`? I’m not "loving" this as well.
> Are these changes really necessary for the Swift evolution? Is it the
> better path to deny its origin and to try to fix what is not broken? I
> would like you to think about it.
> There are many other things that really need to be improved and repaired
> and other things needed to are created. Those mentioned here in this
> message does not seem to fit it.
> Regards,
> -Van
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