<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 7, 2016, at 6:34 PM, Dave Abrahams <<a href="mailto:dabrahams@apple.com" class="">dabrahams@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">on Mon Mar 07 2016, Jon Hoffman <<a href="http://hoffman.jon-at-gmail.com" class="">hoffman.jon-AT-gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I agree that there is other ways we can do code sharing besides<br class="">protocol extensions however as you pointed out extensions are the most<br class="">convenient way. I would also say that in my opinion protocol<br class="">extensions are also the most elegant and one of the easiest for new<br class="">programmers to learn when coming from an OOP background. Developers<br class="">coming from a functional backgrounds can still use global methods.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Well, global functions (except operators—an evil hack that I expect to<br class="">be removed someday [¹]) don't actually allow us to provide default<br class="">implementations for protocol requirements, so they're not a substitute<br class="">for protocol extensions.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal">While global functions do not let us provide default
implementations for protocols themselves, we are able to create a global function
that can perform common functionality on any instance of a type that conforms
to a protocol thereby avoiding duplicating implementations in our types that
conform to a protocol. Personally I am
not a fan of that approach and do not believe it is a good protocol oriented
approach.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">To help grow POP with Swift, in my opinion, there really should be a<br class="">standard or recommended way for adding common functionality even if<br class="">some developers prefer to take a different approach. <br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I'm not talking about alternative approaches that are available in<br class="">Swift. I'm talking about different ways to get the basic generics<br class="">capabilities that fall out of protocol extensions, but using language<br class="">features we don't have. I agree that protocol extensions are a<br class="">beautifully elegant way to get these capabilities, but you could still<br class="">do the same kind of programming with a different mechanism that doesn't<br class="">allow for open-ended extension.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">This will allow us to write books and articles about POP and show a<br class="">consistent approach. If different authors take different approaches,<br class="">it could get confusing for other developers that are trying to figure<br class="">out what POP is. To me standardizing on protocol extensions make the<br class="">most sense.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Of course; that's the way it's done in Swift. I'm trying to say that in<br class="">principle you can take a protocol-oriented approach in many different<br class="">languages and express the same kinds of ideas as we do in Swift, though<br class="">it may not be as elegant. Heck, I was doing much of this in C++ for<br class="">years, and C++ doesn't even have protocols! Of course, it's much uglier<br class="">to do so. Swift is the best language I've seen for expressing the<br class="">protocol-oriented approach. It's also protocol-oriented at its core,<br class="">using protocols for literals, looping, and bridging to Objective C.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">I can see the benefits with also showing other approaches at the same<br class="">time we show protocol extensions larger print mediums like books<br class="">however having that standard approach will make it easier all the way<br class="">around.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">No, I don't suggest you show other approaches. I'm just trying to<br class="">suggest that you think of what POP means separately from the language<br class="">mechanisms used to realize it.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal">Now it is your turn to tell me that I am taking a too narrow
of a view on Protocol-Oriented programming :)
After all I have said that about others, it is only fair for you to say
the same thing to me when I do. You are
correct I have been thinking of it only with Swift and should look at it separately
from the language. </p><p class="MsoNormal">From the time I first saw your presentation I have only
looked at it from a Swift point of view so it may be hard to separate them in
my mind however I think it could be quite fascinating to think about it outside
of language now that you mention it. <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></blockquote><br class="">With all of the talent at Apple, you should have all that completed<br class="">next week and still have time for a paint ball tournament, right? :)<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Mmm, delicious paint balls. Yum.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">I'm just glad there are thoughtful and insightful authors like you out<br class="">there to pick up the thread.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Thank you for the compliment<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Generics are a pretty broad subject to cover all at once, what parts<br class="">do you think matter the most when it comes to POP?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">All of them, sorry ;-)<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>
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post is too long, people tend to not read it all and as you can see, I do tend
to write a lot ;) even when it is not necessary. <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">What makes protocols in Swift different from Java interfaces (or<br class="">Objective-C protocols for that matter) is that they support static<br class="">polymorphism and generic programming.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal">Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying here, Java
interfaces do support generic programming:
<a href="https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/extra/generics/simple.html" class="">https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/extra/generics/simple.html</a> <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote></blockquote><br class="">I do not know enough about ECS to comment any further than the<br class="">granular approach but yes I think that approach is similar to what POP<br class="">is.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">Footnotes: <br class="">[¹] <a href="https://github.com/apple/swift/blob/master/test/Prototypes/GenericDispatch.swift" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift/blob/master/test/Prototypes/GenericDispatch.swift</a><br class=""><br class="">-- <br class="">-Dave<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>