[swift-users] Comparing POP to OOP

[Dave Abrahams]

on Sun Mar 06 2016, Jon Hoffman <hoffman.jon-AT-gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Mar 6, 2016, at 1:12 AM, Dave Abrahams via swift-users <swift-users at swift.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> on Sat Mar 05 2016, Jon Hoffman <swift-users-AT-swift.org> wrote:
>> 
>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 7:35 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-users <swift-users at swift.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> on Sun Feb 14 2016, zhaoxin肇鑫 <swift-users-AT-swift.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> I have not read your blog. But in my opinion, what Apple called protocol
>>>>> programming is actually so called functional programming. It is not object
>>>>> programming at all. It uses protocols and structs to avoid object
>>>>> programming.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think most functional programmers would recognize
>>>> protocol-oriented programming as what they do.  It is true that one of
>>>> the main benefits we see in protocol-oriented programming is that it
>>>> allows one to use *mutable* value types, instead of classes, in
>>>> polymorphic contexts.  Functional programming is largely concerned with
>>>> immutable data, where the distinction between value and reference
>>>> semantics disappears, and it doesn't matter if you're using classes or
>>>> not.  But the main thing in FP is the use of higher-order functions,
>>>> which Swift enthusiastically supports, but have nothing whatever to do
>>>> with protocol-oriented programming.
>>> 
>>> Your e-mail touches on one of the things that excites me the most
>>> about Swift.  As you say “But the main thing in FP is the use of
>>> higher-order functions, which Swift enthusiastically supports, but
>>> have nothing whatever to do with protocol-oriented programming”.
>>> Swift isn’t just a Protocol-Oriented programming language or an
>>> Object-Oriented language or a functional programming language it is
>>> actually all of them and more.  While other languages attempt to
>>> support different paradigms, in my opinion, Swift is one of the few
>>> language that actually does a good job at supporting multiple
>>> paradigms.
>>> 
>>> In the conclusion section of my post, I mention that while I pointed
>>> out a lot of ways that I believe POP is superior to OOP I would not
>>> say that POP is a clear winner over OOP.  
>> 
>> It would be interesting to see where you think OOP has a distinct
>> advantage due to fundamental properties of the paradigms (rather
>> than artifacts of an immature implementation of protocol language
>> features)
>
> I would not say that OOP has a distinct advantage over POP based on
> the fundamental properties of the paradigms.  However, if I were
> pressed I would say that OOP does have an advantage over POP in the
> area of data structures because of POP emphasis on value types over
> reference types.  

“Protocol-oriented” doesn't mean “no reference types.”  It means you're
not forced into reference semantics just because you want polymorphism.

> For example we cannot create a linked list with a value type.

Not true, in fact.

  enum List<T> {
     case Empty
     indirect case NonEmpty(T, List)
  } 

  var x: List = .NonEmpty(3, .NonEmpty(4, .Empty))

There are other ways, but that's the simplest in Swift.

> If we tried we would get a compile time error that says: “Recursive
> value type ‘Type’ is not allowed.
>
> There are two arguments that I could make off the top of my head
> against my last statement.  The first argument would be: Is preferring
> value types to reference types actually part of OOP.  

I presume you meant POP.  Being forced to use reference types is part of
OOP.

> I will address this in my next e-mail where you ask me what I mean by
> my statement that POP is about so much more than the protocol.  The
> second argument would be that we are not limited to value types with
> POP and we are able to still use reference types.

Exactly.

> While it is true that we are still able to use value types 
> with POP

reference types?

> however if we take Apple’s recommendation and use value types
> for our custom types we really should try our best to avoid reference
> types.  It could get confusing if some of our types are reference
> types and some are value types especially for larger enterprise type
> projects.  

No, some things are fundamentally references, as I noted in the talk:
https://github.com/ASCIIwwdc/wwdc-session-transcripts/blob/master/2015/408.vtt#L3082

> Luckily in XCode with have the quick documentation where we can hold
> down the option key and click on the type in question to tell us if it
> is a value or reference type however we do not have that option
> outside of the Apple’s ecosystem like when we are developing Linux
> applications with Swift.  Therefore we need to be careful on how and
> when to use reference and value types.

You always do need to be careful about that, regardless, because they
have different semantics.

> Where I really think OOP has a very distinct advantage of POP is that
> it has been around for so long, has been vetted in more projects then
> either of us can count and it is very well documented.  

Yes, that was the one argument I thought could be defensibly made for
OOP over POP.

> I don’t know if anyone can really say that Apple has documented what
> POP is and isn’t very well 

Absolutely, we have not.

> which is the reason I wrote my book on POP and why I plan on writing
> additional posts on it as well.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of that, and I like to help you
capture more of what we mean by POP.

> If you do a search on the Internet for Protocol-Oriented programming
> you get a number of different views on what it is and what it isn’t.
> Most of the articles, in my opinion, take a very narrow view of POP
> and try to fit it into the OOP model but with an Interface first
> approach which, once again in my opinion, misses the larger view.

Yes!

> Once again I will explain this more in my next e-mail where I address
> your question about what I mean when I say that POP is about so much
> more than the protocol.
>
> Jon
>
>> 
>>> The winner is actually the programmer because we are not limited to
>>> one programming paradigm.  We can choose the paradigm that fits our
>>> needs.  Personally I have use POP in a number of projects and I
>>> definitely prefer it to OOP or FP but I would not criticize anyone
>>> that uses the other two because they are very valid paradigms that
>>> have proven over time.
>> 
>> -- 
>> -Dave
>> 
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-- 
-Dave