<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div></div><div>I have started a new thread.</div><div><br>On Nov 9, 2017, at 2:05 AM, Adrian Zubarev <<a href="mailto:adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com">adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">Hello Ted, would you mind opening a new thread and post an update about the forum and maybe answer a few minor questions like:</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">- what is currently planned?</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">- in which timeframe we *might* see the forum finally happening (don’t have to be a promise)?</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">- what happens to old mailing lists? (I’d say put a public archive somewhere, maybe slightly better formatted than the mailing list is, but do not spam new categories so that we can start with a fresh and clean forum. I also wouldn’t bother with migrating old users to new accounts. If I’m interested in contribution I can take a minute and create a new forum account. I mean we’re not trying to sell here anything, so this shouldn’t be a high priority right!?)</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><br></div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">Thank you. :)</div> <br> <div id="bloop_sign_1510221509310961920" class="bloop_sign"></div> <br><p class="airmail_on">Am 9. November 2017 um 07:12:10, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution (<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>) schrieb:</p> <blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><span><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div></div><div>
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<div class="">On Nov 8, 2017, at 12:08 PM, Kelvin Ma <<a href="mailto:kelvin13ma@gmail.com" class="">kelvin13ma@gmail.com</a>>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Ted
Kremenek via swift-evolution <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
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<div class=""><span class="">On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Ted
Kremenek via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</span></div>
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<div class=""><span class="">On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:30 AM, Wallacy
via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
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<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class=""><span class="">I do not agree with Ted that only a few
projects should be ranked, everyone, as it is in npm should be
available. Only be graded according to recommendations.<br class=""></span></div>
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<div class=""><span class="">I’m a bit confused. I’m not sure
what comments of mine I’m referring to.</span></div>
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<div class="">Clearly I’m double confused. That meant to read
“I’m not sure what comments of mine *you* are referring to”.</div>
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<div class="">I fully support having a broad spectrum of libraries
that the community builds and uses. Any library that we
decide to make part of “core Swift” — IMHO at a mature point in a
library’s evolution — would need to have high value to the majority
of the community and would need to feel solid enough that we can
lock it in for both source and binary compatibility, high quality
of implementation with sustained maintenance, etc.</div>
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<div class="">i mean I don’t think these approaches are
incompatible. The “swift core” could just make the process of
independent libraries getting started easier. Like right now
there’s really no place to say “hey I just started a library
project for X, and anyone who wants to be involved should
contribute at Y github repo where it lives right now”. I’ve tried
sending that on this list before and it didn’t really work because
mailing lists aren’t really a good medium for that and no one wants
the swift-evolution list getting clogged with project-specific
messages most people don’t care about.<br class=""></div>
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<div class="">These are great points.</div>
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<div class="">FWIW, I’m getting optimistic about moving to a forum
soon. Would you expect that a forum could provide a better
vehicle than a mailing list to arrange communication and interest
within the community around building libraries? Not just
doing shout outs for projects, but also doing possible API design
review, etc.?</div>
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<div class="">As an analogy, within Apple we have various mailing
lists to review APIs, which is one mechanism used for different
teams to co-review newly proposed APIs and consider how they
compose together with other APIs. It’s not always perfect,
but it does help facilitate a culture of API review so that various
APIs can be considered together and part of the same (or
compatible) design philosophies.</div>
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<div class="">One of the things that resonated to me from Dave
DeLong’s proposal was a sense about having a set of libraries that
are well-considered and their efforts coordinated. While the
coordination pitched in Dave’s proposal was about a focused effort
on a particular set of libraries/features, coordination can also
take the form of having a community that cares about building good
APIs and can constructively discuss them. This can be done
while also completely factoring out whether or not those APIs are
part of “core Swift”. Further, shared API review wouldn’t
necessarily be about making actual decisions — which is the case of
swift-evolution when evaluating language and standard library
changes — but offering advice. Fundamentally the library
author still stays in control of their library and APIs, but the
community could help in shaping up the gestalt of what are
considered well-crafted Swift APIs in general.</div>
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<div class="">Of course the big difference here with this idea
compared to Apple’s internal API review process is that for Apple
the APIs it vends are intended to be shipped together, and thus
they must work together. In open source, however, efforts on
various libraries are often (usually?) independent. Projects
are usually created independently by different authors, and while
it may be desirable for APIs from various libraries to feel natural
to work with together, it’s not a requirement on their construction
in general.</div>
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