<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 30, 2017, at 9:43 PM, Chris Lattner <<a href="mailto:clattner@nondot.org" class="">clattner@nondot.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">JohnMC: question for you below.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div>On Oct 30, 2017, at 1:25 PM, Douglas Gregor <<a href="mailto:dgregor@apple.com" class="">dgregor@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Thinking about the Perl case makes it clear to me that this should not be built into the compiler as a monolithic thing. Perl supports several different types (SV/AV/HV) which represent different concepts (scalars, arrays, hashes) so baking it all together into one thing would be the wrong way to map it. In fact, the magic we need is pretty small, and seems generally useful for other things. Consider a design like this:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">// not magic, things like Int, String and many other conform to this.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">protocol Pythonable {</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> init?(_ : PythonObject)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> func toPython() -> PythonObject</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">}</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>It’s not magic unless you expect the compiler or runtime to help with conversion between Int/String/etc. and PythonObject, as with _ObjectiveCBridgeable.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Right, as I said above “not magic”. The conformances would be manually implemented in the Python overlay. This provides a free implicit conversion from "T -> Pythonable” for the T’s we care about, and a failable init from Python back to Swift types.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Note that, under this scheme,</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>let p: Pythonable = 17</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>let i: Int = p as! i</div><div><br class=""></div><div>will work if Int is Pythonable, but not when p comes back from Python. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">// Not magic.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">struct PythonObject : /*protocols below*/ {</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> var state : UnsafePointer<PyObject></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> subscript(_ : Pythonable…) -> PythonObject {</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> ...</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> }</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">}</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">// Magic, must be on the struct definition. </span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">// Could alternatively allow custom copy/move/… ctors like C++.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">protocol CustomValueWitnessTable {</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> static func init(..)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> static func copy(..)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> static func move(..)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> static func destroy(..)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">}</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Swift’s implementation model supports this. As a surface-level construct it’s going to be mired in UnsafeMutablePointers, and it’s not at all clear to me that we want this level of control there. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are two ways to implement it:</div><div class="">1) static func’s like the above, which are implemented as UnsafePointer's</div><div class="">2) Proper language syntax akin to the C++ “rule of 5”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The pro’s and con’s of the first approach:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">pro) full explicit control over what happens</div><div class="">pro) no other new language features necessary to implement this. The second approach would need something like ownership to be in place.</div><div class="">con) injects another avenue of unsafety (though it would be explicit, so it isn’t that bad). It isn’t obvious to me that approach #2 can be safe, but I haven’t thought about it enough.</div><div class="">???) discourages people from using this protocol because of its explicit unsafety.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>con) much of the UnsafePointer interface is based on the value witness table, so one has to step lightly or work with something like COpaquePointer/UnsafePointer<Void>.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I can think of two things that could tip the scale of the discussion:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">a) The big question is whether we *want* the ability to write custom rule-of-5 style behavior for structs, or if we want it to only be used in extreme cases (like bridging interop in this proposal). If we *want* to support it someday, then adding proper “safe” support is best (if possible). If we don’t *want* people to use it, then making it Unsafe and ugly is a reasonable way to go.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">b) The ownership proposal is likely to add deinit's to structs. If it also adds explicit move initializers, then it is probably the right thing to add copy initializers also (and thus go with approach #2). That said, I’m not sure how the move initializers will be spelled or if that is the likely direction. If it won’t add these, then it is probably better to go with approach #1. John, what do you think?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;"><div class=""><div class="">Presumably, binding to Python is going to require some compiler effort—defining how it is that Python objects are initialized/copied/moved/destroyed seems like a reasonable part of that effort.</div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Actually no. If we add these three proposals, there is no other python (or perl, etc…) specific support needed. It is all implementable in the overlay.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Support for working with Python objects would be implementable in the overlay, but the result isn’t necessarily ergonomic (e.g., my “as!” case from a Python-generated integer object to Int, shown above). That might be fine! More comments on this below.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">// Magic, allows anyobject-like member lookup on a type when lookup otherwise fails.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">protocol DynamicMemberLookupable {</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> associatedtype MemberLookupResultType</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> func dynamicMemberLookup(_ : String) -> MemberLookupResultType</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">}</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">AnyObject lookup looks for an actual declaration on any type anywhere. One could extend that mechanism to, say, return all Python methods and assume that you can call any Python method with any PythonObject instance. AnyObject lookup is fairly unprincipled as a language feature, because there’s no natural scope in which to perform name lookup, and involves hacks at many levels that don’t always work (e.g., AnyObject lookup… sometimes… fails across multiple source files for hard-to-explain reasons). You’re taking on that brokenness if you expand AnyObject lookup to another ecosystem.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Yeah, sorry, that’s not what I meant:</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>(Good)</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class="">Although it doesn’t really seem like AnyObject lookup is the thing you’re asking for here. It seems more like you want dynamicMemberLookup(_:) to capture “self” and the method name, and then be a callable thing as below…</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That’s what I meant :-).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A type that implements this magic protocol would never fail name lookup: “foo.bar” would always fall back to calling: foo.dynamicMemberLookup(“bar")</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">it’s simple and more predictable than AnyObject, it also matches what dynamic languages like Python needs.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">// Magic, allows “overloaded/sugared postfix ()”.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">protocol CustomCallable {</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> func call( …)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">}</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">The only tricky thing about this is the call part of things. At least in the case of python, we want something like this:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> foo.bar(1, 2, a: x, b: y)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to turn into:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> foo.dynamicMemberLookup(“bar”).call(1, 2, kwargs: [“a”:x, “b”:y])</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">We don’t want this to be a memberlookup of a value that has “bar” as a basename and “a:” and “b:” as parameter labels.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Well, I think the MemberLookupResult is going to get the name “bar”, argument labels “_:_:a:b:”, and arguments “1”, “2”, “x”, “y”, because that’s the Swift model of argument labels. It can then reshuffle them however it needs to for the underlying interaction with the Python interpreter.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are definite design trade-offs here. With AnyObject lookup, it’s a known-broken feature but because it depends on synthesized Swift method declarations, it’ll behave mostly the same way as other Swift method declarations—static overloading, known (albeit weak) type signatures, etc. But, it might require more of Python’s model to be grafted onto those method declarations. With dynamic member lookup, you’re throwing away all type safety (even for a motivated Python developer who might be willing to annotate APIs with types) and creating a general language mechanism for doing that.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Right, something like this could definitely work, but keep in mind that the Swift compiler knows nothing about Python declarations. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Perhaps the most straight-forward thing would be to support:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">protocol CustomCallable {<br class=""> func call(…arg list as array and kw args...)</div><div class=""> func callMember(_ : String, …otherstuffabove...)<br class="">}</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Given this, the compiler could map:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">pythonThing(42) -> pythonThing.call([42])</div><div class="">pythonThing.method(a: 42) -> pythonThing.callMember(“method”, kwargs: [“a”: 42])</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is the simplest way to map the Swift semantics (where kw args are part of compound lookups) into the Python world.</div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div>Okay, I agree that this gets Swift syntax into a call to the Python interpreter fairly quickly. Over-architecting for the sake of discussion:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>protocol CustomCallable {</div><div> associatedtype CustomArgument</div><div> associatedtype CustomNominal</div><div> associatedtype CustomResult</div><div><br class=""></div><div> func callMember(self: CustomNominal, functionName: String, arguments: [(String, CustomArgument)]) throws -> CustomResult</div><div> // something for class/static members</div><div>}</div><div><br class=""></div><div>But this is *all* dynamic, even when one could map much of Python’s type information into Swift. For example, let’s take this:</div><div><br class=""></div><div><pre style="overflow-x: auto; overflow-y: hidden; padding: 5px; background-color: rgb(238, 255, 204); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); line-height: 15.600000381469727px; border-top-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-style: solid none; border-top-color: rgb(170, 204, 153); border-bottom-color: rgb(170, 204, 153);" class=""><span class="k" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32); font-weight: bold;">class</span> <span class="nc" style="color: rgb(14, 132, 181); font-weight: bold;">Dog</span><span class="p">:</span>
<span class="k" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32); font-weight: bold;">def</span> <span class="nf" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 126);">__init__</span><span class="p">(</span><span class="bp" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">self</span><span class="p">,</span> <span class="n">name</span><span class="p">):</span>
<span class="bp" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">self</span><span class="o" style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">.</span><span class="n">name</span> <span class="o" style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">=</span> <span class="n">name</span>
<span class="bp" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">self</span><span class="o" style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">.</span><span class="n">tricks</span> <span class="o" style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">=</span> <span class="p">[]</span> <span class="c1" style="color: rgb(64, 128, 144); font-style: italic;"># creates a new empty list for each dog</span>
<span class="k" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32); font-weight: bold;">def</span> <span class="nf" style="color: rgb(6, 40, 126);">add_trick</span><span class="p">(</span><span class="bp" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">self</span><span class="p">,</span> <span class="n">trick</span><span class="p">):</span>
<span class="bp" style="color: rgb(0, 112, 32);">self</span><span class="o" style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">.</span><span class="n">tricks</span><span class="o" style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">.</span><span class="n">append</span><span class="p">(</span><span class="n">trick</span><span class="p">)</span></pre><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div>With your don’t-modify-the-compiler approach, how can I create a Dog instance and add a trick? I probably need to look up the class by name, call __init__ manually, etc.</div><div><br class=""></div><div> let dogClass = python_getClassByName(“Dog”) // implemented in the Python “overlay’, I guess</div><div> let dog = python_createInstance(dogClass) // implemented in the Python “overlay’, I guess</div><div> dog.__init__(“Brianna”) // uses CustomCallable’s callMember</div><div> dog.add_trick(“Roll over”) // uses CustomCallable’s callMember</div><div><br class=""></div><div>With compiler integration, </div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>class Dog : PythonObject {</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> init(_ name: Pythonable)</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> func add_trick(_ trick: Pythonable)</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>}</div><div><br class=""></div><div>One could possibly bridge the gap with a code generator of some sort, that (for example) maps Dog’s __init__’s to global functions</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>func Dog(_ name: Pythonable) -> Pythonable {</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> let dogClass = python_getClassByName(“Dog”) // implemented in the Python “overlay’, I guess</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> let dog = python_createInstance(dogClass) // implemented in the Python “overlay’, I guess</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> dog.__init__(“Brianna”) // uses CustomCallable’s callMember</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> return dog</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>}</div><div><br class=""></div><div>and maybe turns all Python methods into extensions on Pythonable:</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>extension Pythonable {</div><div> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> func add_trick</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>}</div><div><br class=""></div><div>With either the true “Python importer” solution or this code-generation solution, you at least get some level of code completion and basic sanity checking “for free”. In other words, you get some of the benefits of having a statically-type-checked language while still working on dynamic Pythonable types.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- Doug</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""></body></html>