<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 30, 2017, at 3:23 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 11, 2017, at 9:43 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon <<a href="mailto:brent@architechies.com" class="">brent@architechies.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:31 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">- I’d love to see several of the most common random kinds supported, and I agree it would be nice (but not required IMO) for the default to be cryptographically secure.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">I would be very careful about choosing a "simple" solution. There is a log, sad history of languages trying to provide a "simple" random number generator and accidentally providing a powerful footgun instead. But:</div></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">- We should avoid the temptation to nuke this mosquito with a heavy handed solution designed to solve all of the world’s problems: For example, the C++ random number stuff is crazily over-general. The stdlib should aim to solve (e.g.) the top 3 most common cases, and let a more specialized external library solve the fully general problem (e.g. seed management, every distribution imaginable, etc).</div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That's not to say we need to have seven engines and twenty distributions like C++ does. The standard library is not a statistics package; it exists to provide basic abstractions and fundamental functionality. I don't think it should worry itself with distributions at all. I think it needs to provide:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1. The abstraction used to plug in different random number generators (i.e. an RNG protocol of some kind).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2. APIs on existing standard library types which perform basic randomness-related functions correctly—essentially, encapsulating Knuth. (Specifically, I think selecting a random element from a collection (which also covers generating a random integer in a range), shuffling a mutable collection, and generating a random float will do the trick.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3. A default RNG with a conservative design that will sometimes be too slow, but will never be insufficiently random.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you want to pick elements with a Poisson distribution, go get a statistics framework; if you want repeatable random numbers for testing, use a seedable PRNG from XCTest or some other test tools package. These can leverage the standard library's RNG protocol to work with existing random number generators or random number consumers.</div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">+1 to this general plan!</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>This pretty much exactly matches my preferences. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>If random numbers go into the std lib, they should being able to customize the source of randomness for speed or test reproducibility, but default to something sensible without the user having to know it’s configurable. On Darwin that default should be based on arc4random(3). The std lib doesn’t need to provide other non-default random sources. Non-random sources for testing should be part of test frameworks and plug in easily.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The proposal should include shuffle and random element from collection, which are much-requested and not really the controversial part so won't hold up the overall progress of the proposal.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>(and no need for distributions other than uniform IMO, 🇫🇷🐟 or otherwise)</div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-Chris</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>