<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 1, 2017, at 4:00 AM, Haravikk via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: SFHello-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On 14 Sep 2017, at 20:10, Ben Rimmington <<a href="mailto:me@benrimmington.com" class="">me@benrimmington.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 14 Sep 2017, at 15:31, Haravikk wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 14 Sep 2017, at 02:12, Xiaodi Wu wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 09:13 Haravikk wrote:<br class=""><br class="">I mean because not once have you summarised what these alleged "considerations" were; if they exist then you should be able do so, yet all I am hearing is "it was considered", which frankly is not an argument at all as it is entirely without substance.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Of course it is not an argument at all. It is a factual statement. The objections which you mentioned were also mentioned prior to a decision about SE-0185. The community and the core team had an opportunity to view those objections. After that time, a decision was made, having considered all the stated pros and cons which included the ones that you are now repeating. What "considerations" are you looking for?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Ones with proof that they were ever made! Once again you are stating that these issues were "considered", yet you show not a single shred of proof that that was the case. You're asking me to take you at your word but I have no reason to trust that the problem has been as carefully considered as you claim.<br class="">I was involved in one such discussion and the response from the core team was frankly pitiful; they did not provide any justification whatsoever.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Chris Lattner already said that the core team discussed your concerns:<br class=""><br class=""><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170814/038854.html" class="">https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170814/038854.html</a>><br class=""><br class=""><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170814/038883.html" class="">https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170814/038883.html</a>><br class=""><br class="">The original idea was for most types to be *implicitly* equatable and hashable:<br class=""><br class=""><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160307/012099.html" class="">https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20160307/012099.html</a>><br class=""><br class="">The accepted proposal, with *explicit* declaration of conformance, is a good compromise.<br class=""><br class="">Instead of discussing hypothetical issues with SE-0185, we can wait for Swift 4.1 beta.<br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: SFHello-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: SFHello-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">And as I pointed out this "consideration" was pathetic; he interjected once with a flawed argument and was never seen again. The core team has utterly failed to justify their decision. It does not prove "consideration"; there are no reasoned points, alternatives are never discussed, it is a dictate not a discussion.</span><br style="font-family: SFHello-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: SFHello-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: SFHello-Regular; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">But fuck it, I no longer care; it is clear to me now that Swift Evolution serves no purpose if the core team cannot or will not listen, and on that basis if I cannot trust the core team I cannot trust Swift as a language, and will not be using it going forward, as the direction it is taking frankly undermines any optimism I once had for it.</span></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div>I’m sad to see the thread go this way. Myself and others who want to make swift-evolution feel like a place where ideas are heard certainly are sensitive to individuals getting frustrated. That said, closing out the thread in a way that clearly violates the code of conduct (and thus the core sense of courtesy and professionalism we want to maintain on the list) isn’t effective either. I think the thread should stop here, and remedial actions will be taken to stem this negative dialogue from continuing.</div></body></html>