<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 11:47 AM Vladimir.S <<a href="mailto:svabox@gmail.com">svabox@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 13.09.2017 20:48, Tony Allevato wrote:<br>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 10:21 AM Vladimir.S via swift-evolution<br>
> <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> On 13.09.2017 19:08, Ondrej Barina via swift-evolution wrote:<br>
> > Maybe something like this as middle ground.<br>
> ><br>
> > protocol Equatable {<br>
> > @syntetic static func ==(_ lhs: Self, _ rhs: Self) -> Bool<br>
> > }<br>
> ><br>
> > protocol itself contains default implementation, but without real body.<br>
> Instead the<br>
> > function is marked that the real body is generated by compiler.<br>
> > There is explicit mentions of default impl (by compiler magic), but it does not<br>
> > affects users as they would still use protocol in normal way:<br>
> ><br>
> > struct Foo: Equatable { .... }<br>
><br>
> Yes, I also thought about this. And personally for me it is also good solution, while<br>
> `struct S: Equatable {/*nothing*/}` will *still* lead to compiler's error or at least<br>
> warning about not implemented requirements.<br>
> So, I'll be explicit regarding my intention: do I want requirements to be<br>
> auto-generated or I want to do this manually.<br>
><br>
> But still. If you see<br>
><br>
> struct S: Equatable, Codable {<br>
> // a lot of lines<br>
> }<br>
><br>
> you can't say right now if requirements for Equatable and/or Codable was implemented<br>
> manually or will be auto-generated without checking all the code of a type. This<br>
> knowledge can help to faster solve issues related to comparison/archiving.<br>
> So for me the best solution is still 'deriving'-like keyword, which adds clarity and<br>
> show intention without any boilerplate code:<br>
><br>
><br>
> The sentences above apply equally to non-synthesized default protocol implementations:<br>
><br>
> struct S: Foo {<br>
> // a lot of lines<br>
> }<br>
><br>
> I can't say if the requirements for Foo were implemented manually by S or by a<br>
> default implementation in Foo (which could be in a different module that I don't have<br>
> source access to) without checking all the code for S. So this can't be used as a<br>
> basis to rationalize special-casing synthesized implementations.<br>
<br>
As was noted in this thread, some people believe that protocol synthesizing its<br>
requirements by accessing type's fields is of a different kind than 'usual' protocol<br>
with default implementation.<br>
I belong to that camp. So, from my point of view, it is important to have<br>
'deriving'-like marker for 'auto-senthesizeable' protocols as described above.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I understand that's your (and others') argument. But that argument didn't apply to the example you gave, which was "I don't know if S implements a requirement without looking at all of its code." You can't draw the line from that to "therefore S must say it explicitly derives it" as a special case for Equatable because the same premise also applies to non-synthesized default methods.</div><div><br></div><div>Unfortunately I think this thread has reached a bit of a stalemate, so I'm not sure what else I can add. I believe that creating an entirely new axis of protocol conformance is a very weak solution to the "risky defaults" problem, because it's still all-or-nothing; it doesn't move users any closer to the goal of eliminating boilerplate by leveraging synthesis. The risk space isn't unknown—it can be fully described today because the number of protocols that support synthesis are few and finite. The risky situations presented so far have been of the form "I have a type where some property shouldn't be compared, but the compiler does by default anyway", then it's *very* hard for me to support solutions that say "just disable synthesis, but you still have to implement ==/hashValue/etc. by hand" when I can envision solutions that instead say "just tag the single property with appropriate semantics and the compiler can now do what I wanted it to."</div><div><br></div><div>Make the compiler work for you—don't make you work for the compiler.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Also, some 'usual' protocol Foo can have no default implementations at the moment of<br>
*writing* the code, but can have them at the moment of *compilation* via protocol<br>
extension in separate file in project. So it is not possible to require similar<br>
marker for such protocol.<br>
But Equatable/Hashable/Codable protocols has auto-generation feature already at the<br>
moment of writing the code and we can request that marker.<br>
<br>
Vladimir.<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
> struct S: Equatable, deriving Codable {<br>
> // all clear:<br>
> // manually implemented Equatable<br>
> // auto-generated Codable<br>
><br>
> // a lot of lines<br>
> }<br>
><br>
> Vladimir.<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > Ondrej B.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Haravikk via swift-evolution<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >> On 13 Sep 2017, at 03:26, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> <mailto:<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Haravikk via<br>
> >> swift-evolution<<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>>>wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>> On 12 Sep 2017, at 12:08, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 06:03 Haravikk via swift-evolution<br>
> >>>> <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> See, this is another flawed assumption; you are assuming that<br>
> >>>> omitting a custom implementation of == is always intentional rather<br>
> >>>> than an oversight, which is not guaranteed. This is one of my<br>
> gripes<br>
> >>>> with the retroactive change to Equatable, as it is<br>
> >>>> currently*impossible* to omit an implementation.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Again, this applies equally to the addition of _any_ default<br>
> >>> implementation. And again, such changes don’t even require Swift<br>
> Evolution<br>
> >>> approval.<br>
> >><br>
> >> So what? Because the Swift Evolution process is currently deficient we<br>
> >> should just give up on discussing problems with features and the language<br>
> >> altogether?<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> I don't claim that it's a deficiency; I claim it's reflective of Swift's<br>
> >> opinionated take on default implementations. Are you, after all, saying that<br>
> >> you have a problem with the addition of _any_ default implementation to an<br>
> >> existing protocol? If so, this conversation isn't about<br>
> synthesis/reflection at<br>
> >> all.<br>
> ><br>
> > No, and you should know that by now. I suggest actually reading some of what I<br>
> > have written as I am sick of repeating myself.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>>>> And precisely what kind of "evidence" am I expected to give? This<br>
> >>>>>> is a set of features that*do not exist yet*, I am trying to argue<br>
> >>>>>> in favour of an explicit end-developer centric opt-in rather than<br>
> >>>>>> an implicit protocol designer centric one. Yet no-one seems<br>
> >>>>>> interested in the merits of allowing developers to choose<br>
> what they<br>
> >>>>>> want, rather than having implicit behaviours appear potentially<br>
> >>>>>> unexpectedly.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> Both options were examined for Codable and for Equatable/Hashable.<br>
> >>>>> The community and core team decided to prefer the current<br>
> design. At<br>
> >>>>> this point, new insights that arise which could not be anticipated<br>
> >>>>> at the time of review could prompt revision. However, so far, you<br>
> >>>>> have presented arguments already considered during review.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> And so far all I have heard about this is how it was "decided";<br>
> >>>> no-one seems interested in showing how any of these concerns were<br>
> >>>> addressed (if at all), so as far as I can tell they were not,<br>
> or they<br>
> >>>> were wilfully ignored.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> They were addressed by being considered.<br>
> >><br>
> >> And yet no-one can apparently summarise what those "considerations" might<br>
> >> be, suggesting that they were either *not* considered at all, or that the<br>
> >> "consideration" was so weak that no-one is willing to step forward to<br>
> >> defend it. Either way it is not sufficient by any reasonable measure.<br>
> >><br>
> >> If I were to run over your foot in my car, would you be happy to accept<br>
> >> that I "considered" it first?<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> How do you mean? People wrote in with their opinions. Then, taking into<br>
> account<br>
> >> the community's response, the proposal was approved.<br>
> ><br>
> > I mean because not once have you summarised what these alleged<br>
> "considerations"<br>
> > were; if they exist then you should be able do so, yet all I am hearing is "it<br>
> > was considered", which frankly is not an argument at all as it is entirely<br>
> > without substance.<br>
> ><br>
> > If it was genuinely considered then someone should be able to say what points<br>
> > were considered and what conclusions were reached and why. And even if there<br>
> > *was* an earlier decision, that doesn't necessarily make it right. We are<br>
> > discussing it now, and it is clear that any decision that has been made<br>
> has been<br>
> > made poorly at best.<br>
> ><br>
> > And if you're talking about the discussion on Equatable/Hashable specifically,<br>
> > I'm afraid your memory of the "considerations" is radically different to<br>
> mine; as<br>
> > the concerns I raised were essentially ignored, as not a single person gave a<br>
> > justification more substantial than "but, but Codable!" which frankly isn't a<br>
> > justification at all.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>>>> Therefore, your argument reduces to one about which default<br>
> >>>>>> implementations generally ought or ought not to be<br>
> >>>>>> provided--that is, that they ought to be provided only when<br>
> >>>>>> their correctness can be guaranteed for all (rather than<br>
> almost<br>
> >>>>>> all) possible conforming types. To which point I sketched a<br>
> >>>>>> rebuttal above.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> If a protocol defines something, and creates a default<br>
> >>>>> implementation based only upon those definitions then it<br>
> must by<br>
> >>>>> its very nature be correct. A concrete type may later<br>
> decided to<br>
> >>>>> go further, but that is a feature of the concrete type, not a<br>
> >>>>> failure of the protocol itself which can function correctly<br>
> >>>>> within the context it created. You want to talk evidence, yet<br>
> >>>>> there has been no example given that proves otherwise;<br>
> thus far<br>
> >>>>> only Itai has attempted to do so, but I have already<br>
> pointed out<br>
> >>>>> the flaws with that example.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> The simple fact is that a default implementation may either be<br>
> >>>>> flawed or not within the context of the protocol itself; but a<br>
> >>>>> reflective or synthetic implementation by its very nature goes<br>
> >>>>> beyond what the protocol defines and so is automatically<br>
> flawed<br>
> >>>>> because as it does not rely on the end-developer to confirm<br>
> >>>>> correctness, not when provided implicitly at least.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> Again, if it applies generally, it must apply specifically.<br>
> What is<br>
> >>>>> "automatically flawed" about the very reasonable synthesized<br>
> default<br>
> >>>>> implementation of ==?<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> It makes the assumption that every equatable property of a type is<br>
> >>>> necessarily relevant to its equality.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> No necessarily, only provisionally and rebuttably. If it’s not the case,<br>
> >>> override the default.<br>
> >><br>
> >> So… entirely unlike standard default implementations<br>
> >> which*cannot* "provisionally" assume something is relevant at all,<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Why not?<br>
> ><br>
> > Because they can only act upon properties/methods that they themselves (or a<br>
> > parent protocol) define. FFS, what is so unclear about that? Or are you<br>
> arguing<br>
> > on this subject without every having actually used a protocol before?<br>
> ><br>
> >> thereby making them entirely different from synthesised/reflective<br>
> >> implementations!<br>
> >><br>
> >> I'm sorry, but you keep trying to argue that they're the same, but then<br>
> >> admitting that they're not. You can't have it both ways.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Well, certainly, synthesized default implementations differ from<br>
> >> non-synthesized ones in key respects. However, they do not differ in terms of<br>
> >> the user experience of conforming to the protocol and having to override the<br>
> >> default.<br>
> ><br>
> > Except that that's not true at all, is it?<br>
> ><br>
> > Synthesised default implementations go much further in how they attempt (and<br>
> > potentially fail) to implement those defaults, and in the specific case of<br>
> > Equatable/Hashable they are fully implementing a protocol without a single<br>
> > property of method being raised as a requirement; they are utterly<br>
> different at a<br>
> > fundamental level, no amount of mental contortion changes that fact.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>> Consider for example if a type stores a collection index for<br>
> >>>> performance reasons; this isn't an intrinsic part of the type, nor<br>
> >>>> relevant to testing equality, yet this default implementation will<br>
> >>>> treat it as such because it*knows nothing about the concrete type's<br>
> >>>> properties*. If a protocol does not define a property then any<br>
> action<br>
> >>>> taken upon such a property is necessarily based upon an assumption;<br>
> >>>> just because it might be fine some of the time, does not make<br>
> it any<br>
> >>>> less flawed.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> The big difference here between explicit and implicit synthetic<br>
> >>>> implementations is where this assumption originates; if a method is<br>
> >>>> synthesised implicitly then the assumption is made by the protocol<br>
> >>>> designer alone, with no real involvement by the end developer. If I<br>
> >>>> explicitly opt-in to that default however I am signalling to the<br>
> >>>> protocol that it is okay to proceed. In the former case the<br>
> >>>> assumption is unreasonable, in the latter it is explicitly<br>
> >>>> authorised. It is a difference between "I want to make the decision<br>
> >>>> on what's correct" and "I am happy for you (the protocol<br>
> designer) to<br>
> >>>> decide".<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Right now, when I conform to Equatable, it is a declaration of "I<br>
> >>>> will implement this", but with this retroactive implicit change<br>
> it is<br>
> >>>> now a declaration of "implement this for me", these are two<br>
> entirely<br>
> >>>> different things. Consider; what if I'm working on a piece of code<br>
> >>>> that requires types to be Equatable, but one of the types I'm using<br>
> >>>> currently isn't, so I quickly throw Equatable conformance onto<br>
> it and<br>
> >>>> go back to what I was doing, with the intention of completing<br>
> >>>> conformance later. With this change that type may now receive a<br>
> >>>> default implementation that is wrong, and I've lost the safety net<br>
> >>>> that currently exists.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Right now, it still wouldn’t compile, so I don’t see why you would do<br>
> >>> that. In the future, if you want to make it not compile, there is<br>
> nothing<br>
> >>> stopping you from conforming to a non-existent “NotYetEquatable”.<br>
> This was<br>
> >>> something that you asked about earlier and it was answered.<br>
> >><br>
> >> So your solution is to intentionally write invalid code to work<br>
> around the<br>
> >> fact that a feature is being implemented badly?<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> You stated a use case where you *want* the compiler to stop your code from<br>
> >> compiling by stating a conformance to Equatable without implementing its<br>
> >> requirements. You then stated that the major problem you have with<br>
> synthesized<br>
> >> `==` is that the compiler will now use a default implementation that you<br>
> might<br>
> >> forget about instead of stopping compilation. Therefore, I demonstrated<br>
> how you<br>
> >> could continue to have the compiler stop your code from compiling. It's<br>
> not my<br>
> >> solution that is intentionally writing invalid code; your stated aim was<br>
> to be<br>
> >> able to do so.<br>
> ><br>
> > My stated aim was nothing of the sort.<br>
> ><br>
> > I was pointing out that right now conforming to Equatable means something<br>
> > entirely different from what it will mean in future if this idiotic change<br>
> makes<br>
> > it into release. Please actually read what I write before deciding for<br>
> yourself<br>
> > what my 'stated aim' is.<br>
> ><br>
> > I am *not* asking for workarounds to circumvent a ridiculously flawed<br>
> change to<br>
> > the language, I am arguing why it is flawed and must be changed. If I wanted a<br>
> > workaround I'd do what I'm now seriously considering, which is ditching Swift<br>
> > completely, as I will not use a language if I can no longer trust the team<br>
> > developing it or the decisions that they make.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>> A non-synthesised/reflective implementation cannot strictly be<br>
> >>>> incorrect, because as long as it is implemented properly it will<br>
> >>>> always be correct within the context of the protocol itself. It may<br>
> >>>> not go quite as far as an end developer might want, but that is<br>
> >>>> because they want to add something onto the protocol, not<br>
> because the<br>
> >>>> protocol is wrong.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> A synthesised/reflective implementation differs because if it goes<br>
> >>>> too far it is wrong not only within the context of the concrete<br>
> type,<br>
> >>>> but also the protocol itself, it is simply incorrect.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Again, this is an assertion that misses the mark. If the default<br>
> >>> implementation is unsuitable for a type, it’s unsuitable whether it<br>
> >>> “doesn’t go quite as far” or “goes too far.”<br>
> >><br>
> >> Because not going quite far enough is not a failure of the protocol, as<br>
> >> protocols by their very nature can only go as far as what they<br>
> define. If a<br>
> >> protocol Foo defines two properties, a method which uses those two<br>
> >> properties correctly, then the method is correct. A developer of a<br>
> concrete<br>
> >> type might want to add more information or tailor the behaviour, but that<br>
> >> doesn't make the default implementation incorrect, it's just considering<br>
> >> the type only within the context of being an instance of Foo.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Going too far is the opposite; it's the protocol designer messing around<br>
> >> with stuff they do not define at all. It's only ever right by chance, as<br>
> >> it's operating within the context of the concrete type, about which the<br>
> >> protocol does not know anything with certainty.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Yes, you have defined "not going far enough" and "going too far" based on<br>
> >> whether an implementation uses only protocol requirements or not.<br>
> However, you<br>
> >> haven't at all demonstrated why this distinction is at all meaningful in<br>
> terms<br>
> >> of the issue you describe with a user conforming to a protocol. If there is a<br>
> >> default implementation, either it returns the expected result for the<br>
> >> conforming type or it does not--those are the only two choices. Are you<br>
> arguing<br>
> >> that, empirically, the default implementation for Equatable will more<br>
> often be<br>
> >> unsuitable for conforming types? If so, what's your evidence?<br>
> ><br>
> > What's yours? If this issue was as "considered" as you constantly claim then<br>
> > where is the evidence that there is no meaningful distinction? Surely such<br>
> > evidence exists, or else the issue hasn't been considered at all, has it?<br>
> ><br>
> > Frankly I am sick of being asked to provide evidence when you are seemingly<br>
> > unwilling to do anything in return, especially when you have conveniently<br>
> ignored<br>
> > every single example that I have already given.<br>
> ><br>
> > It cuts both ways; you claim that "going too far" and "not going far<br>
> enough" are<br>
> > the same thing? Well prove it.<br>
> ><br>
> >>> You state but do not give any rationale for the claim that the former is<br>
> >>> not wrong in some context while the latter is always wrong.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> By this line of argumentation, you’d be perfectly content if instead we<br>
> >>> simply had the default implementation of == as “return true” because it<br>
> >>> would be somehow not wrong.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Only if return true were a reasonable default to give in the context<br>
> of the<br>
> >> protocol, which it clearly is not, as it's not performing any kind of<br>
> >> comparison of equality.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Sure it is; `return true` satisfies all the semantic requirements for<br>
> equality:<br>
> >> reflexivity, symmetry, transitivity; and, in the context of the protocol<br>
> which<br>
> >> only provides for this one facility (determination of equality or<br>
> inequality),<br>
> >> any two instances that compare equal _are_ completely interchangeable "within<br>
> >> the context of the protocol itself," as you would say.<br>
> ><br>
> > The purpose of Equatable is to identify types that can be compared for<br>
> equality;<br>
> > returning true does not satisfy that aim because no such comparison is<br>
> occurring,<br>
> > so your example is intentionally ridiculous. Even a less contrived example<br>
> such<br>
> > as comparing memory addresses doesn't fulfil the purpose of Equatable,<br>
> which is<br>
> > all about comparing equality of different instances that might still be<br>
> the same.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>>> Put another way, what the proposal about synthesizing<br>
> >>>>> implementations for Equatable and Hashable was about can be<br>
> >>>>> thought of in two parts: (a) should there be default<br>
> >>>>> implementations; and (b) given that it is impossible to write<br>
> >>>>> these in Swift, should we use magic? Now, as I said above,<br>
> >>>>> adding default implementations isn't (afaik) even<br>
> considered an<br>
> >>>>> API change that requires review on this list. Really, what<br>
> >>>>> people were debating was (b), whether it is worth it to<br>
> >>>>> implement compiler-supported magic to make these possible.<br>
> Your<br>
> >>>>> disagreement has to do with (a) and not (b).<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Wrong. The use of magic in this case produces something else<br>
> >>>> entirely; that's the whole point. It is*not the same*,<br>
> otherwise<br>
> >>>> it wouldn't be needed at all. It doesn't matter if it's<br>
> compiler<br>
> >>>> magic, some external script or a native macro, ultimately they<br>
> >>>> are all doing something with a concrete type that is currently<br>
> >>>> not possible.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> And once again;*I am not arguing against a default<br>
> implementation<br>
> >>>> that cuts boilerplate*, I am arguing against it being implicit.<br>
> >>>> What I want is to be the one asking for it, because it is not<br>
> >>>> reasonable to assume that just throwing it in there is always<br>
> >>>> going to be fine, because it quite simply is not.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> If you have to ask for it, then it's not a default. You *are*<br>
> against<br>
> >>>> a default implementation.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> A default implementation is an implementation that I, as the<br>
> concrete<br>
> >>> type developer, do not have to provide myself. If you want<br>
> default to<br>
> >>> mean only "automatic" then your attempt to pigeon-hole what I am<br>
> >>> arguing is incorrect, because what I am arguing is then neither<br>
> about<br>
> >>> default implementations nor the means of actually implementing<br>
> it, but<br>
> >>> something else entirely.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> But as far as I'm concerned it still absolutely still a default<br>
> >>> implementation whether it is requested or not; the difference is<br>
> I, as<br>
> >>> the end developer, am able to refine what type of defaults that<br>
> I want.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> The word “default” indicates something that arises in the absence of a<br>
> >>> user indication otherwise.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Then this proposal is just for a different mechanism for "indicating<br>
> >> otherwise".<br>
> >><br>
> >> You keep trying to argue that a synthesised/reflective default<br>
> >> implementation is the same as a normal default implementation, yet<br>
> you seem<br>
> >> to be consistently forgetting that even if that is true without this<br>
> >> proposal, that the very proposal itself is to change that, effectively<br>
> >> causing a category of default implementation to become explicitly<br>
> >> opted-into, rather than implicitly. They're still implementations<br>
> that will<br>
> >> be provided automatically, just only when they are permitted to do-so.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> So to be clear, you are *against* them being the *default*: you wish them<br>
> to be<br>
> >> the *otherwise*.<br>
> ><br>
> > You seem to be insisting upon a narrow definition of default; what I want is<br>
> > control over which types of default implementations are provided. Just because<br>
> > they must be opted-into explicitly does not stop them being "default", as they<br>
> > are still implementations that I myself do not need to implement. The<br>
> difference<br>
> > is that I want to actually *want* them rather than have provided through<br>
> > potentially flimsy assumptions made by a protocol designer. Just because<br>
> there's<br>
> > an extra step doesn't make them any less automatic, otherwise having to<br>
> conform<br>
> > to a protocol in the first place would also prevent them from being defaults.<br>
> ><br>
> > Asking *for* something is more like a middle-ground between the two; the<br>
> > synthetic implementations are still possible defaults, they just aren't<br>
> provided<br>
> > unless you allow them, while omitting the necessary keyword/attribute prevents<br>
> > them being used.<br>
> ><br>
> >>>> On 9 Sep 2017, at 23:17, Gwendal Roué <<a href="mailto:gwendal.roue@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendal.roue@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gwendal.roue@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendal.roue@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gwendal.roue@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendal.roue@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gwendal.roue@gmail.com" target="_blank">gwendal.roue@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> All right, I'll be more positive: our science, IT, is a<br>
> >>>> *constructive* science, by *essence*. If there is a problem, there<br>
> >>>> must be a way to show it.<br>
> >>>> It you can't, then there is no problem.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> You mean just as I have asked for examples that prove<br>
> >>> non-synthetic/reflective default implementations are as dangerous as<br>
> >>> synthetic/reflective ones? Plenty have suggested this is the<br>
> case yet<br>
> >>> no reasonable examples of that have been given either.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> However, examples highlighting problems with the synthesised<br>
> behaviour<br>
> >>> are simple:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> structFoo :Equatable{vardata:String}// Currently an error, won't<br>
> >>> be in future<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Or something a bit more substantial:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> structKeyPair :Equatable{<br>
> >>> staticvarcount:Int=0<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> varcount:Int<br>
> >>> letkey:String// This is the only property that should be<br>
> equatable<br>
> >>> varvalue:String<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> init(key:String, value:String) {<br>
> >>> letcount =KeyPair.count&+1<br>
> >>> KeyPair.count= count;self.count= count<br>
> >>> self.key= key;self.value= value<br>
> >>> }<br>
> >>> }<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Here the only important property in the key pair is the key, the<br>
> value<br>
> >>> isn't important (only the keys are to be considered unique) and the<br>
> >>> count is just a throwaway value. The synthesised default<br>
> >>> implementation for this concrete type will therefore be completely<br>
> >>> wrong, likewise for Hashable, which will likely produce radically<br>
> >>> different results for instances that should be the same.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I notice that despite asking endlessly for examples, the ones I've given<br>
> >> are being ignored. In future I shall remind people asking for examples<br>
> >> where they can shove them.<br>
> ><br>
> > And once again, totally ignored. You seem to love asking for "evidence"<br>
> but why<br>
> > exactly should I bother giving anything if you ignore it when I try to?<br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > swift-evolution mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br>
> > <a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br>
> > <<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a>><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > swift-evolution mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br>
> > <a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> swift-evolution mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br>
> <a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br>
><br>
</blockquote></div></div>