<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Can you point me towards the changes to the `self.` so I can catch up to what I might have missed?<div class="">I remember it causing trouble, especially with things like this:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">extension MyType: ExpressibleByIntegerLiteral {</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>public typealias IntegerLiteralType = UInt64</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>public init(initegerLiteral literal: IntegerLiteralType) {</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>self.uint64Value = literal // error: Cannot convert from IntegerLiteralType (a.k.a. Int) to UInt64</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>}</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">}</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It clearly preferred the global `IntegerLiteralType` over mine and replacing the signature with `(integerLiteral literal: Self.IntegerLiteralType)` fixed it.</div><div class="">There have been numerous examples like this.</div><div class="">If you make a protocol, which you intend to fully automatically conform to another protocol (by implementing all its requirements in a protocol extension), this "conformance" can silently fail due to ambiguities like this and you won't catch it until you conform to this protocol and find a weird error.</div><div class="">It's even more confusing in generic function constraints:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">extension theUltimateAnswerToLifeUniverseAndEverything<A>() -> A where A: ExpressibleByIntegerLiteral, IntegerLiteralType == IntMax {</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>return 42</div><div class="">}</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Can you honestly say that from the first glance, it's immediately obvious to you which one of the `IntegerLiteralType ` this is referring to?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regarding access modifiers on extensions and `inout enum`, I agree: that's an unnecessary complication of the lexical structure that introduces a lot of confusion and provides very questionable gain.</div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 11, 2017, at 11:43 AM, Adrian Zubarev <<a href="mailto:adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com" class="">adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;" class=""><code style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;" class="">self.</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is a different story. It’s absence has become quite popular out in the wild and it’s becoming even more optional in Swift 4. A week or two ago Slava Pestov said on twitter that he has fixed several bugs that made<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;" class="">self.</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>even more optional though the whole language.</p><p style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">Personally I don’t care if other people are using this convenience, I’ll let them have that option :-) , but I simply cannot get along with the idea that there could a global variable or a function that has the exact same signature as one of the type members, which could lead to unexpected bugs which are really hard to track.</p><p style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">If I would granted the chance to tackle again the access modifier on extensions, I’d do it and try to remove that feature from the language. I’m not using it, I won’t ever use it and I haven’t seen any *good* swift code using it. It’s just too much sugar if you ask me.</p><p style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">Same goes for<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;" class="">indirect enum</code>. How rare is it used? If it’s used how complex are the enum cases that it cannot be applied on the cases only which needs it?</p><div style="margin: 15px 0px;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div class="bloop_original_html" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div id="bloop_sign_1497170006308611840" class="bloop_sign"><div style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 13px;" class="">-- <br class="">Adrian Zubarev<br class="">Sent with Airmail</div></div><br class=""><p class="airmail_on" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Am 11. Juni 2017 um 10:30:29, Gor Gyolchanyan (<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>) schrieb:</p><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><span style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""></div><div class="">There was another proposal that got rejected, which was about forcing the usage of `self.` on members.<div class=""><div class="">I pretty much *require* it in my code for two reasons:</div><div class="">* The understandable requirement of `self.` in closures conflicts with the lack of `self.` in methods, which is confusing.</div><div class="">* The ability to refer to globals and members in the same way is also making the code harder to read.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The same goes for using `Self.` for associated types and type aliases inside protocols, because it's very easy to accidentally confuse them with global types, which would mess up the protocol.</div><div class="">I know that this adds a bit of code, but it does not make the code less readable (in the contrary) and modern IDEs are very capable of code completion, which negates the problem of having to type more text manually.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The argument agains this was something like "this is not worth sacrificing such a convenience".</div><div class="">On the other hand, on numerous occasions I've heard another argument against a proposal that said "it's not worth gaining terseness by sacrificing clarity".<br class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This direct contradiction of priorities is worrying to me.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 11, 2017, at 11:21 AM, Adrian Zubarev <<a href="mailto:adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">Yeah, well I messed up my proposal from last year about removing the access modifier on extensions and wish now I wasn’t that confused back than and made it right.</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">The<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="-webkit-margin-before: 0px;"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">indirect</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword is literally the same story. The docs only says that this is only a shortcut.</p><blockquote class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; border-left-width: 4px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); padding: 0px 15px; color: rgb(119, 119, 119);"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">„To enable indirection for all the cases of an enumeration, mark the entire enumeration with the indirect modifier—this is convenient when the enumeration contains many cases that would each need to be marked with the indirect modifier.“</div></blockquote><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">If you really wish to reuse that keyword here we might need to remove such shortcuts from the language (indirect enum, access modifier on extensions, anything else?).</p><div class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder" style="-webkit-margin-before: 0px;"></div></div><div class="bloop_original_html" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px;"><br class=""></div><br class=""><div id="bloop_sign_1497168891326406912" class="bloop_sign"><div class="" style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 13px;">-- <br class="">Adrian Zubarev<br class="">Sent with Airmail</div></div><br class=""><p class="airmail_on" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Am 11. Juni 2017 um 10:12:38, Gor Gyolchanyan (<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>) schrieb:</p><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">I always wondered, why is `indirect` allowed on the `enum` itself? Wouldn't it make more sense to apply it to individual cases that recursively refer to the `enum`?</span><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">This question also applies to access modifiers on extensions. So, what is it supposed to do? Change the default access modifier from `internal` to whatever I specify? That's just confusing, reduces readability and the syntactic gain is marginal at best.</span></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">If the `indirect` confusion becomes real, I'd suggest getting rid of `indirect enum` and using `indirect case` instead.<br class=""></span><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class=""></span><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;"><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">On Jun 11, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</span></div><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;"><span class="" style="-webkit-margin-before: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">The proposal is looking good to me. :) It will also enable easy support for custom views using XIBs in iOS development without unnecessary view nesting.</span></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><span class="" style="-webkit-margin-before: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">For instance the function from this example<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="-webkit-margin-before: 0px;"> </span><a href="https://stackoverflow.com/a/43123783/4572536" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">https://stackoverflow.com/a/43123783/4572536</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>could be used directly inside an<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">init</code>:</span></p><pre class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); overflow: auto; padding: 4px 8px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;"><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 0px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">class MyView : UIView {
indirect init() {
return MyView.instantiateFromXib()
// Or after SR-0068
return Self.instantiateFromXib()
}
}
</code></pre><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">There is still one little thing that bothers me, it might be a little bit confusing to have two different meanings of<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="-webkit-margin-before: 0px;"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">indirect</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on enums.</p><pre class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); overflow: auto; padding: 4px 8px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;"><code class="swift" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 0px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">indirect enum ArithmeticExpression {
case number(Int)
case addition(ArithmeticExpression, ArithmeticExpression)
case multiplication(ArithmeticExpression, ArithmeticExpression)
// This might makes no sense, but it would still be possible after
// this proposal.
indirect init(other: ArithmeticExpression) {
return other
}
// Furthermore if the keyboard is applied to the enum
// directly all other `indirect` uses are inferred.
// Will this be implicitly `indirect` because of the previous fact?
init() { … }
}
</code></pre><div class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder" style="-webkit-margin-before: 0px;"></div></div><div class="bloop_original_html" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px;"><br class=""></div><br class=""><div id="bloop_sign_1497167373101756160" class="bloop_sign"><div class="" style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 13px;">-- <br class="">Adrian Zubarev<br class="">Sent with Airmail</div></div><br class=""><p class="airmail_on" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Am 11. Juni 2017 um 00:38:56, Riley Testut via swift-evolution (<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>) schrieb:</p><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Awesome! Updated my proposal to include what I believed to be the relevant portions of your indirect initializer idea. Let me know if there’s anything I missed or should change :-)</span></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><a href="https://github.com/rileytestut/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/NNNN-factory-initializers.md" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/rileytestut/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/NNNN-factory-initializers.md</a></span></div><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class=""></span><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;"><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">On Jun 10, 2017, at 12:43 PM, Gor Gyolchanyan <<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>> wrote:</span></div><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Hi, Riley!</span></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class=""></span></div><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">I think that's a great idea! We can merge the second part of my proposal (the `indirect init`) into your one and refine and consolidate the prerequisite proposal (about returning from `init` and possibly in-place member initializers) and bunch them up into a proposal cluster (the way swift coders did).</span><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Feel free to tear out any chunks from my proposal, while I think about a more in-depth rationale about revamping initialization syntax. 🙂<br class=""></span><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class=""></span><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;"><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">On Jun 10, 2017, at 8:36 PM, Riley Testut <<a href="mailto:rileytestut@gmail.com" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">rileytestut@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></div><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Hi Gor 👋</span><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">I’m very much in fan of a unified initialization syntax. I submitted my own proposal for factory initializers a while back, but since it wasn’t a focus of Swift 3 or 4 I haven’t followed up on it recently. In the time since last working on it, I came to my own conclusion that rather than focusing on factory initialization, the overall initialization process should be simplified, which I’m glad to see someone else has realized as well :-)</span></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Here’s my proposal for reference:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/pull/247/commits/58b5a93b322aae998eb40574dee15fe54323de2e" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/pull/247/commits/58b5a93b322aae998eb40574dee15fe54323de2e</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Originally I used the “factory” keyword, but I think your “indirect” keyword may be a better fit (since it has precedent in the language and is not limited to “just” being about factory initialization). To divide your proposal up into smaller pieces for review, maybe we could update my proposal to use your indirect keyword, and then start a separate topic/proposal for the remaining aspects of your proposal? I agree that splitting it into smaller chunks may be better for the process.</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Let me know what you think!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Riley</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 10, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Gor Gyolchanyan via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is a very interesting read.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="">Thanks you! I tried to make it as clear and detailed as possible. 🙂 </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We did not discuss the 'indirect' idea at all on this list. Did you come up with it just now? In any case, my suggestion as to moving forward would be this:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div>I was writing the proposal and was just about to write `factory init`, when it occurred to me: enums already have a keyword that does something very similar. It seemed to me that an initializer that doesn't initialize the instance in-place, but returns a completely separate instance from somewhere else, is kinda "indirectly" initializing the instance. Plus, the already established keyword and its semantic would reduce the learning curve for this new feature and separate it from a single specific use case (the "factory method" pattern).<div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- Do you feel that both halves of your draft (expanding `return` in initializers, and `indirect` initializers) should absolutely be one proposal, or can they be separated?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="">I think the `return` can be easily implemented first, while opening up an opportunity to later implement `indirect init`. The reason why I unified them was that the `return` idea on its own has very limited merit and could the thought of as a low-priority cosmetic enhancement. I wouldn't want it to be viewed that way because the primary purpose of that idea is to enable `indirect init` (which Cocoa and Cocoa Touch developers would be very happy about). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">a) If they can be separated because each half has individual merit, then these ideas may be more likely to succeed as separate proposals, as each can be critiqued fully and judged independently as digestible units.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="">Very good point. The challenge is to correctly separate them, without losing context in their respective proposals and without bleeding the proposals into each other.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">b) If you intend to tackle all your ideas all at once, that's going to be a much bigger change--in terms of review effort, likely bikeshedding, and implementation effort. It'll probably be best to solicit initial feedback on this list first about `indirect` initializers, even if just to familiarize the community with the idea, before launching into a pitch of the whole proposal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="">I'd never send a pull request to swift-evolution without thoroughly discussing it here. I just though, if I'm going to write a whole proposal with examples and motivation, it would be easier to demonstrate it and discuss in with the community If I just went ahead and wrote the whole thing and sent the link. This way it would be clearer to the reader and the discussed changes would be accurately reflected by the commits I'd make to my proposal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Original Message</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 10, 2017, at 2:38 AM, Daryle Walker via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class="">On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Gor Gyolchanyan<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class="">Forked swift-evolution, created a draft proposal:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><a href="https://github.com/technogen-gg/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/NNNN-uniform-initialization.md" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/technogen-<wbr class="">gg/swift-evolution/blob/<wbr class="">master/proposals/NNNN-uniform-<wbr class="">initialization.md</a><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is my first proposal, so I might have missed something or composed it wrong, so please feel free to comment, fork and send pull requests. 🙂<div class=""><div class="h5"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is a very interesting read. We did not discuss the 'indirect' idea at all on this list. Did you come up with it just now? In any case, my suggestion as to moving forward would be this:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- Do you feel that both halves of your draft (expanding `return` in initializers, and `indirect` initializers) should absolutely be one proposal, or can they be separated?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">a) If they can be separated because each half has individual merit, then these ideas may be more likely to succeed as separate proposals, as each can be critiqued fully and judged independently as digestible units.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">b) If you intend to tackle all your ideas all at once, that's going to be a much bigger change--in terms of review effort, likely bikeshedding, and implementation effort. It'll probably be best to solicit initial feedback on this list first about `indirect` initializers, even if just to familiarize the community with the idea, before launching into a pitch of the whole proposal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""><div class="h5"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 9, 2017, at 3:24 PM, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7329774452902408180Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;">Cool. I have reservations about idea #3, but we can tackle that another day. (Real life things beckon.) But suffice it to say that I now really, really like your idea #2.<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="">On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 08:06 Gor Gyolchanyan <<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;">You know, come to think of it, I totally agree, and here's why:<div class="">A normal initializer (if #2 is accepted) would *conceptually* have the signature:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">mutating func `init`(...) -> Self</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Which would mean that both `self` and the returned result are non-optional.</div><div class="">A failable initializer could then have the signature:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">mutating func `init`() -> Self?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Which would make the returned result optional, but leave `self` non-optional.</div><div class="">This would make `return nil` less out-of-place, like you said, while still leaving `self` as a set-exactly-once `inout Self`.</div><div class="">A factory initializer would then have the signature:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">static func `init`(...) -> Self</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">or in case of a failable factory initializer:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">static func `init`(...) -> Self?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Which would still make sense with the now legal `return ...` syntax, while adding the restriction of not having any `self` at all.</div><div class="">So, annotating the initializer with the keyword `factory` would cause it to change the signature as well as remove any compiler assumptions about the dynamic type of the returned instance.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In addition, idea #3 would be available for more deterministic in-place initialization.</div></div><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 9, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7329774452902408180m_-1696318748622386158Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 07:33 Gor Gyolchanyan <<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;">So far, we've discussed two ways of interpreting `self = nil`, both of which have a sensible solution, in my opinion:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">1. It's a special rule like you said, which can be seen as counter-intuitive, but recall that `return nil` is just as much of a special rule and is also largely counter-intuitive.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">`return nil` is “special,” but it doesn’t conflict with any other syntax because the initializer notionally has no return value. Personally, I have always disliked `return nil` in failable initializers for that reason, but I couldn’t come up with a better alternative.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Your proposed idea to allow returning any value is interesting because, in the case of a failable initializer, `return nil` continues to have the same meaning if we consider the return value of the initializer to be of type `Self?`. For that reason, I think your idea #2 is quite clever, and it would go a long way in making `return nil` a lot less odd. It also increases the expressivity of initializers because it allows one to set the value of self and also return in one statement, clearly demonstrating the intention that no other code in the initializer should be run before returning.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For all of those reasons, I think idea #2 is a winning idea.</div></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class="">The benefit of `self = nil` is that it's much more in line with initialization semantics, it provides more uniform syntax and it's a bit less restrictive.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">2. It's an `inout Self!`, like Greg said, which can be seen as more cumbersome. Implicitly unwrapped optionals are a bit difficult, but this "variation" of it is much more restrictive then the normal ones, because unlike normal implicitly unwrapped optionals, this one cannot be accessed after being assigned nil (and it also cannot be indirectly assigned `nil`, because escaping `self` is not allowed before full initialization), so there is only one possible place it can be set to nil and that's directly in the initializer. This means that `self` can be safely treated as `inout Self` before being set to nil (and after being set to nil, it doesn't matter any more because you aren't allowed to access it, due to not being fully initialized).</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I have to say, I don’t like either of these explanations at all. I think having a “special” IUO is a difficult sell; it is just conceptually too complicated, and I don’t agree that it gains you much.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">By your own admission, `self = nil` is wonky, and making the language wonkier because it currently has a parallel wonky feature in `return nil` seems like the wrong way to go. In addition, there’s nothing gained here that cannot be done with a defer statement; of course, defer statements might not be very elegant, but it would certainly be less wonky than inventing a new variation on an IUO to allow assignment of nil to self... For those reasons, I conclude that I’m not excited about your idea #1.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""></div><div class="">Overall, I'd go with #2 because it involves much less confusing magic and the restrictions of `self as inout Self!` are imposed by already existing and well-understood initialization logic, so the provided guarantees don't really come at the cost of much clarity.</div></div></div><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 9, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7329774452902408180m_-1696318748622386158m_-1836007598760388288m_758143498405985784Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 07:12 Gor Gyolchanyan <<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;">I think a good approach would be to have `self = nil` only mean `the initializer is going to fail` because if your type is ExpressibleByNilLiteral, it means that the `nil` of your type already carries the same meaning as if your type was not ExpressibleByNilLiteral and was an optional instead, so having a failable initializer doesn't really make sense in that case (since you could've initialized `self` to its own `nil` in case of failure). Still, some valid use cases may exist, so the natural (and quite intuitive) way to circumvent this would be to call `self.init(nilLiteral: ())` directly.</div><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So you would create a special rule that `self = nil` means a different thing in an initializer than it does in a function? Essentially, then, you’re creating your own variation on an implicitly unwrapped optional, where `self` is of type `inout Self?` for assignment in initializers only but not for any other purpose. Implicitly unwrapped optionals are hard to reason about, and having a variation on it would be even harder to understand. I don’t think this is a workable design.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It might be possible to have `self` be of type `inout Self?`; however, I do think Greg is right that it would create more boilerplate than the current situation.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 9, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7329774452902408180m_-1696318748622386158m_-1836007598760388288m_758143498405985784m_8163076293838887182Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="" style="font-family: DejaVuSans; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br class="m_-7329774452902408180m_-1696318748622386158m_-1836007598760388288m_758143498405985784m_8163076293838887182Apple-interchange-newline">On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 06:56 Gor Gyolchanyan <<a href="mailto:gor@gyolchanyan.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gor@gyolchanyan.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; font-family: DejaVuSans; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class="">The type of `self` could remain `inout Self` inside the failable initializer. The ability to assign nil would be a compiler magic (much like `return nil` is compiler magic) that is meant to introduce uniformity to the initialization logic.</div><br class=""><div class="">The idea is to define all different ways initialization can take place and expand them to be used uniformly on both `self` and all its members, as well as remove the ways that do not make sense for their purpose.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Currently, there are 3 ways of initializing self as a whole:</div><div class="">1. delegating initializer</div><div class="">2. assigning to self</div><div class="">3. returning nil</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">#1: The delegating initializer is pretty much perfect at this point, in my opinion, so no changes there.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">#2: The only exception in assigning to self is the `nil` inside failable initializers.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">#3: The only thing that can be returned from an initializer is `nil`, which is compiler magic, so we can thing of it as a misnomer (because we aren't really **returning** anything).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If, for a second, we forget about potential factory initializers, returning anything from an initializer doesn't make much sense, because an initializer is conceptually meant to bring an existing object in memory to a type-specific valid state. This semantic was very explicitly in Objective-C with `[[MyType alloc] init]`. Especially since even syntactically, the initializer does not specify any return type, the idea of returning from an initializer is counter-intuitive both syntactically and semantically.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The actual *behavior* of `return nil` is very sensible, so the behavior, I imagine `self = nil`, would largely mean the same (except not needed to return immediately and allowing non-self-accessing code to be executed before return). Being able to assign `nil` to a non-optional (ExpressibleByNilLiteral doesn't count) may feel a bit wonky,</div></div></div></blockquote><div class="" style="font-family: DejaVuSans; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: DejaVuSans; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">What happens when Self is ExpressibleByNilLiteral and you want to initialize self to nil? That is what `self = nil` means if `self` is of type `inout Self`. If `self` is of type `inout Self` and Self is not ExpressibleByNilLiteral, then it must be an error to assign nil to self. Anything else does not make sense, unless `self` is of type `inout Self?`.</div><div class="" style="font-family: DejaVuSans; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; font-family: DejaVuSans; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class="">but not as wonky as returning nil from something that is meant to initialize an object in-place and doesn't look like it should return anything.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""># Factory Initializers</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In case of factory initializers, the much discussed `factory init` syntax could completely flip this logic, but making the initializer essentially a static function that returns an object. In this case the initializer could be made to specify the return type (that is the supertype of all possible factory-created objects) and assigning to self would be forbidden because there is not self yet:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">extension MyProtocol {</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">public factory init(weCool: Bool) -> MyProtocol {</div><div class="">self = MyImpl() // error: cannot assign to `self` in a factory initializer</div><div class="">self.init(...) // error: cannot make a delegating initializer call in a factory initializer</div><div class="">if weCool {</div><div class="">return MyCoolImpl()</div><div class="">} else {</div><div class="">return MyUncoolImpl()</div><div class="">}</div><div class="">}</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">}</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""># In-place Member Initializers</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In addition, member initialization currently is only possible with #2 (as in `self.member = value`), which could be extended in a non-factory initializer to be initializable in-place like this:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">self.member.init(...)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This would compliment the delegating initialization syntax, while giving a more reliable performance guarantee that this member will not be copy-initialized.</div></div></div><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 9, 2017, at 1:32 PM, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7329774452902408180m_-1696318748622386158m_-1836007598760388288m_758143498405985784m_8163076293838887182m_-8492261585337030922Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;">If `self` is not of type `inout Self?`, then what is the type of `self` such that you may assign it a value of `nil`?<br class=""><br class="">It certainly cannot be of type `inout Self`, unless `Self` conforms to `ExpressibleByNilLiteral`, in which case you are able to assign `self = nil` an unlimited number of times–but that has a totally different meaning.<br class=""><br class="">Could `self` be of type `inout Self!`? Now that implicitly unwrapped optionals are no longer their own type, I’m not sure that’s possible. But even if it were, that seems unintuitive and potentially error-prone.<br class=""><br class="">So I think Greg is quite right that, to enable this feature, `self` would have to be of type `inout Self?`–which is intriguing but potentially more boilerplatey than the status quo.<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 05:24 Gor Gyolchanyan via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;">Good point, but not necessarily.<br class=""><div class="">Since you cannot access `self` before it being fully initialized and since `self` can only be initialized once, this would mean that after `self = nil`, you won't be allowed to access `self` in your initializer at all.You'll be able to do any potential, cleanup though.</div><div class="">Also, since there can be only one `self = nil`, there's no reason to treat `self` as `inout Self?`, because the only place it can be `nil` is the place it cannot be accessed any more.</div></div><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 9, 2017, at 7:45 AM, Greg Parker <<a href="mailto:gparker@apple.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gparker@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-7329774452902408180m_-1696318748622386158m_-1836007598760388288m_758143498405985784m_8163076293838887182m_-8492261585337030922m_1716065582357142928Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><div class="" style="margin-top: 0px;">On Jun 8, 2017, at 5:09 AM, Gor Gyolchanyan via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><div class="" style="margin-bottom: 0px;"><div class=""><br class="">1. Arbitrary `self` Assignments In Intializers<br class=""><br class="">The first ideas is to allow `self = nil` inside failable initializers (essentially making `self` look like `inout Self?` instead of `inout Self` with magical `return nil`), so that all initializers uniformly can be written in `self = ...` form for clarity and convenience purposes. This should, theoretically, be nothing but a `defer { return nil }` type of rewrite, so I don't see any major difficulties implementing this. This is especially useful for failable-initializing enums where the main switch simply assigns to self in all cases and the rest of the initializer does some post-processing.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I don't see how to avoid source incompatibility and uglification of failable initializer implementations here. Allowing `self = nil` inside a failable initializer would require `self` to be an optional. That in turn would require every use of `self` in the initializer to be nil-checked or forced. I don't think that loss everywhere outweighs the gain of `self = nil` in some places.</div></div><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-- </div><div class="">Greg Parker <span class="m_-7329774452902408180m_-1696318748622386158m_-1836007598760388288m_758143498405985784m_8163076293838887182Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gparker@apple.com" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">gparker@apple.com</a> Runtime Wrangler</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); 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