<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 10, 2017, at 1:04 PM, Daniel Duan <<a href="mailto:daniel@duan.org" class="">daniel@duan.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Apr 10, 2017, at 10:52 AM, Matthew Johnson <<a href="mailto:matthew@anandabits.com" class="">matthew@anandabits.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Apr 10, 2017, at 12:48 PM, Daniel Duan <<a href="mailto:daniel@duan.org" class="">daniel@duan.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">No offense taken.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">There's no inherent problem with designing language with available tools in mind. After all, what we put in the language is a strict subset of what's viable in a compiler.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">IMHO Swift should care more about separation of language and tools due to its long-term ambition: is it a good language out side of the most typical experience? If I edit the source with my favorite editor, on Linux, and/or compile with an alternative compiler, can I get a similar experience ?<br class=""><br class="">A language that conquers the world shouldn't depend on tools to be awesome.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I agree with this. I just don’t think inference depends on tools. It only depends on reasonable judgement by authors. The same can be said for many features that we don’t want to do without. Inference just happens to be an area where tools can help out when 1) a beginner or someone new to Swift is reading the code or 2) the author left off an annotation where maybe they should have included one.<br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I’d argue that a fix-it suggestion should do. Tools can go above and beyond what the the language defines of course.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>How would the fix-it stay out of the way when the annotation really isn’t intended? </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">Daniel Duan<br class="">Sent from my iPhone<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Apr 10, 2017, at 10:22 AM, Sean Heber <<a href="mailto:sean@fifthace.com" class="">sean@fifthace.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Apr 10, 2017, at 11:38 AM, Daniel Duan <<a href="mailto:daniel@duan.org" class="">daniel@duan.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Using tools isn't a bad thing. Designing language assuming users are using tools with certain capability is kind of a bad thing.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I see this sentiment on this list a lot. Where does it come from? Is there any supporting research? What drives it?<br class=""><br class="">(I don’t mean to pick on Daniel - I’m curious about this overall from anyone that has sources. It has become such a prevailing refrain at times that I think it’d be best for everyone if we knew if it was even true!)<br class=""><br class="">l8r<br class="">Sean</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>