<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:25 AM Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">Hello Swift community,</p><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">The review of SE-0161 "Smart KeyPaths: Better Key-Value Coding for Swift" begins now and runs through April 5, 2017. The proposal is available here:</p><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 16px;padding:0px 1em;border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><div style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" class="gmail_msg"><font color="#6a737d" face="-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol" size="3" class="gmail_msg"><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0161-key-paths.md" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0161-key-paths.md</a></font></div></blockquote><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at</p><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 16px;padding:0px 1em;color:rgb(106,115,125);border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><div style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" class="gmail_msg"><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(3,102,214);text-decoration:none" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></div></blockquote><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager. When replying, please try to keep the proposal link at the top of the message:</p><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 16px;padding:0px 1em;border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><p style="color:rgb(106,115,125);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px" class="gmail_msg">Proposal link:</p><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px 1em;border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229)" class="gmail_msg"><div style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" class="gmail_msg"><font color="#6a737d" face="-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol" size="3" class="gmail_msg"><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0161-key-paths.md" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0161-key-paths.md</a></font></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 16px;padding:0px 1em;color:rgb(106,115,125);border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><div style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" class="gmail_msg">Reply text</div></blockquote><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 16px;padding:0px 1em;color:rgb(106,115,125);border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px 1em;border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229)" class="gmail_msg"><div style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" class="gmail_msg">Other replies</div></blockquote></blockquote><h5 style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;font-size:0.875em;line-height:1.25;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><a id="m_4358420231476793768user-content-what-goes-into-a-review-1" class="m_4358420231476793768anchor gmail_msg" href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/pulls#what-goes-into-a-review-1" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(3,102,214);text-decoration:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1" target="_blank"><u class="gmail_msg"></u><u class="gmail_msg"></u><u class="gmail_msg"></u><u class="gmail_msg"></u></a>What goes into a review?</h5><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your review:</p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><li style="box-sizing:border-box" class="gmail_msg">What is your evaluation of the proposal?</li></ul></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+0.5. The concept is something the language very much needs, but please reconsider reverting to the lightweight syntax of the original proposal—IMO the version here is significantly worse in terms of legibility and discourages its use by being noisy. The fact that keypaths have their own nominal types that can be extended to introduce new behaviors makes it even more critical that they be easy and clean to use. If this becomes they way property behaviors are introduced into the language, the #keypath syntax simply won't fly.</div><div><br></div><div>I too struggled with the lightweight syntax at first (unfortunately I didn't have the time to weigh in on the original version of the proposal, but I would have given it a +1 as originally written), but once I thought about it more, I realized like many others that it lined up perfectly with the syntax used for unbound method references. A "key path" is really just an unbound property reference that also happens to be able to navigate more deeply through the type graph. For that reason, it should use the same syntax that unbound function references use.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't discount the argument that some have made that it's difficult to distinguish between keypaths and static property expressions. If that's the case, then the same problem *already exists* in Swift between unbound method references and static property expressions. If that is deemed to be a problem, we shouldn't fix it *only* for keypaths. Instead, keypaths should be recognized as what they are—unbound property references—and use the original syntax that aligned with unbound method references. *Then* we should consider alternative syntaxes that would fix the problem for *both* kinds of unbound references at once, in the same way.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em" class="gmail_msg">Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?</li></ul></div></blockquote><div>Yes. Being able to refer to properties in an abstract way fills a big hole in the language.</div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em" class="gmail_msg">Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?</li></ul></div></blockquote><div>Conceptually yes, but the #keypath syntax does not. It complicates what should be an easy-to-use feature.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em" class="gmail_msg">If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?</li></ul></div></blockquote><div>Just Objective-C, whose notion of keypaths differs from what is trying to be done for Swift.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em" class="gmail_msg">How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?</li></ul></div></blockquote><div>Followed the original discussions and first review thread.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">More information about the Swift evolution process is available at</p><blockquote style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 16px;padding:0px 1em;color:rgb(106,115,125);border-left-width:0.25em;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(223,226,229);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg"><div style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" class="gmail_msg"><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(3,102,214);text-decoration:none" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a></div></blockquote><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">Thank you,</p><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">-Doug</p><p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;color:rgb(36,41,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="gmail_msg">Review Manager</p></div>_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">
swift-evolution mailing list<br class="gmail_msg">
<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="gmail_msg">
<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" rel="noreferrer" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class="gmail_msg">
</blockquote></div></div>