<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On 21 Mar 2017, at 18:41, David Hart via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div><span></span></div><div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>On 21 Mar 2017, at 16:57, Drew Crawford <<a href="mailto:drew@sealedabstract.com">drew@sealedabstract.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><br></div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><br><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;"><div><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> I’m not arguing that it is less or more than a majority. I’m just saying that we’ve seen a lot of talk against the original change.</div></blockquote></div><p>This proposal asks us to balance the convenience of one group (extension-writers) against the existence of another (scoped-access users). To do that, we need a clear idea of the composition of both groups.</p><p>“A lot of talk” is not the evidentiary standard to remove a feature. It was not good enough when we introduced the feature, that required argument and clear use-cases.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>"A lot of talk" is not the evidence supporting the proposal: it's just a warning that something may be very controversial among the community. The arguments for the revert are in the proposal and in the discussions in this thread.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;"><div><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> By default, I did not mean the syntactic default of the language but the access modifier users will use “by default” when trying to restrict visibility. In most languages, that keyword is “private” so its valid to say that newcomers to the language will “default” to using that one.</div></blockquote></div><p>Apologies, but I do not understand the argument:</p><ol><li>A user wants to restrict visibility (e.g. they are dissatisfied with “internal”)</li><li>The user *chooses* private because of familiarity from another language</li><li>The user is then surprised that their choice of private indeed restricted the visibility, thus achieving their goal?</li></ol><div>What language does the user come from in which “private” is file-visible? It isn’t Java, C++, or PHP. C#’s “partial” is the closest I can think of, and it isn’t at all close.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It has pointed quite a few times by core team members that comparison to languages is not a very strong arguments, especially when Swift does things differently for a good reason. I can't stop from quoting Xiaodi from a month back:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">«The beauty of Swift 2's access modifiers was that they were based around
files and modules, explicitly rejecting types and scopes as units for
determining visibility.» -- Xiaodi</span></div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I do not see how Swift explicitly rejected both types and scope for determining visibility, we have private and fileprivate for a reason and they may not help everybody to feel Swifty or whatever that means in practice, but it allows others to do actual work. Having additional flexibility does not hurt people that want to stick with file based visibility.</div><div><br></div><div>None of us here is paid to write haiku/poetry code, so while beauty has a place it is not the necessary and sufficient condition for language features: code is meant to be read, refactored, and most of all shipped and debugged quickly.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;"><div>A user who wants a middle-ground visibility would “default” to “protected”, “friend”, “partial”, or similar. After that does not compile, they will use google to find a middle-road visibility keyword, for which the only candidate is “fileprivate”. But they will not choose “private”, it’s just not a reasonable expectation of what the keyword means to a new Swift developer.</div><div><br></div><div>The popularity of private “as a default” is simply because many users prefer to hide their implementation details as a matter of routine code hygiene. Redefining private in order to thwart their code hygiene goal seems extreme.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The point is that keeping both private and fileprivate feels like an un-necessary complication:</div><div><br></div><div>• either a programmer falls on your side of the fence and will use private as often as possible and relegate to fileprivate when the design leaves no other choice. At that point it feels like a language wart.</div><div>• or a programmer will fall on my side of the fence and use fileprivate all the time and the language feels like it has an unnecessary access modifier.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd argue that the cases when a programmer will use both meaningfully is very rare. As a consequence, we should try to only keep one. Removing fileprivate is a no-go with extensions so that leaves us with removing private.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;"><div>I agree with several here (as I did in SE-0025) that our access modifiers are not well-named. However, that’s not the proposal in front of us.</div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> My own statistics in my projects show the contrary. At best, this shows how divisive this feature is.</div></blockquote></div><p>This *may* show that, if contrary statistics were presented, but that hasn’t occurred.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>I can generate statistics from my projects if you want. But it's unnecessary: I haven't used private once since it's introduction in Swift 3. I don't see the advantages it brings worth the trouble.</div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;"><div><div><div><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><ul class="MailOutline"><li class="">In old code, statistics could be biased by the migrator having replaced all previous instances of private by fileprivate.</li></ul></div></blockquote></div><p>If the migrator migrated code to private, and it *worked* (e.g. did not introduce visibility errors) this is not bias, this is a correct use of the feature.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>The migrator migrated to fileprivate everywhere, not private, disagreeing with your use of fileprivate.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;"><div><div><div><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> I'm just arguing that the additional scope-based access modifier does not provide enough differentiation to be worth that complexity.</div></blockquote></div><p>The only argument I have seen so far around “complexity” boils down to: “some people do not use it”. But some people *do* use it, and anyway if we are going to remove all the features “not enough people” use then we are in for a ride.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Some people used the for(;;) loop, the ++ operator, var parameters. Many other features were removed from Swift to simplify he language, make it more consistent. Those are worthwhile goals. Yes, we are past Swift 3 now, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to propose a few rare breaking proposals. The implementation of access modifiers came so late in the Swift 3 timeframe that we had little time to play around with them before Swift 3 was released. Now that we have, we have a short window of time to fix mistakes that were made. I'm just arguing that the proposal was one of those mistakes. But you have a right to disagree.</div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;"><div><div><p>Swift 3 shipped, so what we are discussing now is yanking a keyword without replacement. There is code written that uses private to enforce its threading or security invariants. There is code written that uses private in order to shadow another declaration. There is code that will not compile after migration. We need more than a vague fear of complexity generally to throw a brick through all those windows. That brick will introduce quite a bit of complexity itself.</p><blockquote type="cite" style="border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; padding-left: 5px; border-left-width: 1px !important; border-left-color: rgb(0, 64, 128) !important;">Concerning the one-class-per-file argument, I would suggest this counter-argument: when working in large projects, I believe it's a good thing if the language encourages (forces is too strong a word for my taste) a one class per file structure, it's good practice.</blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>The form of the argument is invalid. Suppose I argued: "it’s a good thing for the language to encourage one definition per class (no extensions), it’s good practice. So we do not need fileprivate.” That would be very silly (although it has already been advanced as a straw-man position elsewhere in this thread). The argument that we do not need private because nobody should put multiple classes in a file is equally silly. There are reasons to do so, in fact one motivation was given in SE-0025:</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite" style="border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; padding-left: 5px; border-left-width: 1px !important; border-left-color: rgb(0, 64, 128) !important;"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;">> Putting related APIs and/or related implementations in the same file helps ensure consistency and reduces the time to find a particular API or implementation. </div></blockquote></div><div><div style="margin: 0px;"><br></div></div></div><div>These concerns are not resolved by arguments of the form “just don’t do that”.</div><div><br></div><div>I empathize with the Swift2 programmer who got through two releases without a scoped access modifier and is annoyed by change. However, removing the feature now is more change, not less, so it makes their problem worse, not better.</div></div></div></div></div> <br> <div id="bloop_sign_1490111635269603072" class="bloop_sign"></div> <br><p class="airmail_on">On March 21, 2017 at 2:17:40 AM, David Hart (<a href="mailto:david@hartbit.com">david@hartbit.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><span><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div></div><div>
<title></title>
<div class="">Perhaps it was a mistake, but I purposefully did not
go into too much detail in the proposal because I think this debate
is purely a question of philosophy on Swift and its language
features. I did not want to add un-necessary bloat that would have
added little rationalisation. Let me try to explain the holes in
the proposal by answering your review:</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 21 Mar 2017, at 02:26, Drew Crawford via
swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">I disagree quite strongly with the proposal.</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">First, the document draws conclusions without apparent
supporting evidence, e.g.</p>
<blockquote style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<div style="margin: 0px;" class="">> Since the release of Swift
3, the access level change of SE–0025 was met with dissatisfaction
by a substantial proportion of the general Swift community. Those
changes can be viewed as actively harmful, the new requirement for
syntax/API changes.</div>
</blockquote>
<ul style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<li style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">What is “dissatisfaction by
a substantial proportion of the general Swift community”? How was
this measured/determined?</li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
It’s not feasible to measure precisely the feeling of a whole
community. But we get a feeling for it by following the
mailing-list, by talking to colleagues, by reading twitter, etc…
And it think we all agree that the debate is highly divisive and
that a “substantial proportion” of the community was dissatisfied:
I’m not arguing that it is less or more than a majority. I’m just
saying that we’ve seen a lot of talk against the original
change.</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<ul style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<li style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">What was done to control for
the population happy with SE-0025 who would e.g. not be likely to
take up pitchforks?</li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
That’s why its important we have this debate now.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<ul style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<li style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">Who argues these changes are
“actively harmful” and where were they during SE-0025?</li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>The proposal makes the argument that the changes are actively
harmful. It’s now up to debate. By the way, even if several people
(including me) were already against this proposal during the
review, I don’t see why anybody would not have the right to change
his mind, especially after several months of production usage and
argue differently now.</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<div style="margin: 0px;" class="">> subtly encourages overuse
of scoped access control and discourages the more reasonable
default</div>
</blockquote>
<ul style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<li style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">Who claims that scoped
access is “overused” and what is their argument for doing so?</li>
<li style="margin: 15px 0px;" class="">Why is “fileprivate” the
“more reasonable default”? In fact neither fileprivate *<em class="">nor*</em><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>private are default
(reasonable or not!). Internal is the default. Nor does this
proposal suggest we change that. So this seems a very strange
statement.</li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
By default, I did not mean the syntactic default of the language
but the access modifier users will use “by default” when trying to
restrict visibility. In most languages, that keyword is “private”
so its valid to say that newcomers to the language will “default”
to using that one. If the proposal is accepted, file-scoped private
will regain that status.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<div style="margin: 0px;" class="">> But is that distinction
between private and fileprivate actively used by the larger
community of Swift developers?</div>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">Yes. To cite some evidence, here are codebases I actively
maintain:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| codebase
| private # | fileprivate # | ratio
|</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">|--------------------------------------------------------|-----------|---------------|-------|</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| "M" (proprietary)
| 486 | 249
| 2x |</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| "N"(proprietary)
| 179 | 59
| 3x |</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| NaOH<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>|
15 | 1
| 15x |</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| atbuild<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> |
54 | 5
| 11x |</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">So from my chair, not only is the distinction useful, but
scoped access control (private) is overwhelmingly (2-15x) more
useful than fileprivate.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>My own statistics in my projects show the contrary. At best,
this shows how divisive this feature is. During the discussion of
this proposal, it was argued that making decisions based upon
project statistics would be dangerous:</div>
<div><br class=""></div>
<div>
<ul class="MailOutline">
<li class="">In old code, statistics could be biased by the
migrator having replaced all previous instances of private by
fileprivate.</li>
<li class="">In new code, satistics could be biased by people using
private because of it being the “soft-default”, regardless of
proper semantics.</li>
</ul>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">> And if it were used pervasively, would it be
worth the cognitive load and complexity of keeping two very similar
access levels in the language? This proposal argues that answer to
both questions is no</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">This proposal does not make any later argument about
“cognitive load” or “complexity” I can identify. Did the
proposal get truncated?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Sorry if I did not state it explicitly, but I see any
feature/keyword added to the language as “additional complexity”.
And that complexity is completely worth it when the feature adds
significant expressivity. I'm just arguing that the additional
scope-based access modifier does not provide enough differentiation
to be worth that complexity.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">What is stated (without evidence) is that "it is extremely
common to use several extensions within a file” and that use of
“private” is annoying in that case. I now extend the above
table</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| codebase
| private # | fileprivate # | ratio | # of
extensions (>=3 extensions in file) |</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">|--------------------------------------------------------|-----------|---------------|-------|------------------------------------------|</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| "M" (proprietary)
| 486 | 249
| 2x | 48
|</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| "N"(proprietary)
| 179 | 59
| 3x | 84
|</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| NaOH<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>|
15 | 1
| 15x | 3
|</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><font face="Courier New" class="">| atbuild<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> |
54 | 5
| 11x | 6
|</font></p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">in order to demonstrate in my corner of Swift this is not
“extremely common”, and is actually less popular than language
features the proposal alleges aren’t used.</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">My point here is that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">**different people
in different corners of the community program Swift differently and
use different styles**</b>. I can definitely empathize with
folks like the author who use extensions to group functions and are
annoyed that their favorite visibility modifier grew four extra
characters. Perhaps we can come up with a keyword that is
more succint.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I agree that different people in different corners use different
styles. But you could use that argument to validate many features
which would make a group of users happy; but all those feature
together would just add bloat to the language. Swift has been known
to be a very opinionated language, to keep the language simple yet
expressive.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">However, that is no reason to take away features from
working codebases. A scoped access modifier is perhaps my
favorite feature in Swift 3. Let’s not throw stuff away
because it adds extra characters to one programming style.</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">Finally, SE-0025 establishes clear motivation for the
scoped access modifier:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">> Currently, the only reliable way to hide
implementation details of a class is to put the code in a separate
file and mark it as private. This is not ideal for the following
reasons:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">> It is not clear whether the implementation details
are meant to be completely hidden or can be shared with some
related code without the danger of misusing the APIs marked as
private. If a file already has multiple classes, it is not clear if
a particular API is meant to be hidden completely or can be shared
with the other classes.</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">> It forces a one class per file structure, which is
very limiting. Putting related APIs and/or related implementations
in the same file helps ensure consistency and reduces the time to
find a particular API or implementation. This does not mean that
the classes in the same file need to share otherwise hidden APIs,
but there is no way to express such sharability with the current
access levels.</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">As far as I can see, the proposal does not actually
address or acknowledge these problems at all, but cheerfully
returns us to them. It would be a mistake to deprecate this
feature without examining at all why we introduced it. And
realistically we need new solutions to those problems before
removing the existing one.</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">Drew</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">On March 20, 2017 at 6:54:55 PM, Douglas Gregor (<a href="mailto:dgregor@apple.com" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">dgregor@apple.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">Hello Swift community,</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">The review of SE–0159 “Fix Private Access Levels” begins
now and runs through March 27, 2017. The proposal is available
here:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Reviews
are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews
should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>or,
if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the
review manager. When replying, please try to keep the proposal link
at the top of the message:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">Proposal link:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Reply
text Other replies What goes into a review?</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal
under review through constructive criticism and, eventually,
determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here
are some questions you might want to answer in your review:</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">What is your evaluation of the proposal? Is the problem
being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?
Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?
If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar
feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those? How
much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick
reading, or an in-depth study? More information about the Swift
evolution process is available at</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thank
you,</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">-Doug</p>
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">Review Manager</p>
<hr style="height: 0.2em; border: 0px; color: rgb(204, 204, 204); background-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); display: inherit; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<p style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">swift-evolution-announce mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution-announce@swift.org" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">swift-evolution-announce@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution-announce" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution-announce</a></p>
<span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">swift-evolution mailing list</span><br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254); text-decoration: none; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class="">
<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254); text-decoration: none; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);" class=""></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div></div></span></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>swift-evolution mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>