<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:57 AM, Drew Crawford via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0px;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=""><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> I’m not arguing that it is less or more than a majority. I’m just saying that we’ve seen a lot of talk against the original change.</div></blockquote></div><p class="">This proposal asks us to balance the convenience of one group (extension-writers) against the existence of another (scoped-access users). To do that, we need a clear idea of the composition of both groups.</p><p class="">“A lot of talk” is not the evidentiary standard to remove a feature. It was not good enough when we introduced the feature, that required argument and clear use-cases.</p><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> By default, I did not mean the syntactic default of the language but the access modifier users will use “by default” when trying to restrict visibility. In most languages, that keyword is “private” so its valid to say that newcomers to the language will “default” to using that one.</div></blockquote></div><p class="">Apologies, but I do not understand the argument:</p><ol class=""><li class="">A user wants to restrict visibility (e.g. they are dissatisfied with “internal”)</li><li class="">The user *chooses* private because of familiarity from another language</li><li class="">The user is then surprised that their choice of private indeed restricted the visibility, thus achieving their goal?</li></ol><div class="">What language does the user come from in which “private” is file-visible? It isn’t Java, C++, or PHP. C#’s “partial” is the closest I can think of, and it isn’t at all close.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A user who wants a middle-ground visibility would “default” to “protected”, “friend”, “partial”, or similar. After that does not compile, they will use google to find a middle-road visibility keyword, for which the only candidate is “fileprivate”. But they will not choose “private”, it’s just not a reasonable expectation of what the keyword means to a new Swift developer.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The popularity of private “as a default” is simply because many users prefer to hide their implementation details as a matter of routine code hygiene. Redefining private in order to thwart their code hygiene goal seems extreme.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree with several here (as I did in SE-0025) that our access modifiers are not well-named. However, that’s not the proposal in front of us.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> My own statistics in my projects show the contrary. At best, this shows how divisive this feature is.</div></blockquote></div><p class="">This *may* show that, if contrary statistics were presented, but that hasn’t occurred.</p><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><ul class="MailOutline"><li class="">In old code, statistics could be biased by the migrator having replaced all previous instances of private by fileprivate.</li></ul></div></blockquote></div><p class="">If the migrator migrated code to private, and it *worked* (e.g. did not introduce visibility errors) this is not bias, this is a correct use of the feature.</p><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">> I'm just arguing that the additional scope-based access modifier does not provide enough differentiation to be worth that complexity.</div></blockquote></div><p class="">The only argument I have seen so far around “complexity” boils down to: “some people do not use it”. But some people *do* use it, and anyway if we are going to remove all the features “not enough people” use then we are in for a ride.</p><p class="">Swift 3 shipped, so what we are discussing now is yanking a keyword without replacement. There is code written that uses private to enforce its threading or security invariants. There is code written that uses private in order to shadow another declaration. There is code that will not compile after migration. We need more than a vague fear of complexity generally to throw a brick through all those windows. That brick will introduce quite a bit of complexity itself.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>+1. On one side we have a vague notion of “complexity” which doesn’t appear to amount to much more than a statement of opinion that the granularity isn’t useful. On the other side we have people who find legitimate value in the feature for important and clearly articulated purposes. This seems to me to be a solid demonstration that the feature <i class="">is</i> useful. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>Compiler verification of invariant-preserving encapsulation is important. It is not trivial. It is not something to be written off lightly because “you’re only protecting yourself from yourself”. People make very similar arguments against static typing outside of the Swift community but most of us here see value in static types. Frankly, I’m surprised that so many don’t see more value in compiler verified encapsulation. Is it as important as a robust static type system? No. But that doesn’t make it unimportant.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0px;" class=""><div id="bloop_sign_1490109825482707968" class="bloop_sign"><div class="bloop_container"><div class="bloop_frame"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; padding-left: 5px; border-left-width: 1px !important; border-left-color: rgb(0, 64, 128) !important;" class="">Concerning the one-class-per-file argument, I would suggest this counter-argument: when working in large projects, I believe it's a good thing if the language encourages (forces is too strong a word for my taste) a one class per file structure, it's good practice.</blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class="">The form of the argument is invalid. Suppose I argued: "it’s a good thing for the language to encourage one definition per class (no extensions), it’s good practice. So we do not need fileprivate.” That would be very silly (although it has already been advanced as a straw-man position elsewhere in this thread). The argument that we do not need private because nobody should put multiple classes in a file is equally silly. There are reasons to do so, in fact one motivation was given in SE-0025:</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; padding-left: 5px; border-left-width: 1px !important; border-left-color: rgb(0, 64, 128) !important;" class=""><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px;" class="">> Putting related APIs and/or related implementations in the same file helps ensure consistency and reduces the time to find a particular API or implementation. </div></blockquote></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class="">These concerns are not resolved by arguments of the form “just don’t do that”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I empathize with the Swift2 programmer who got through two releases without a scoped access modifier and is annoyed by change. However, removing the feature now is more change, not less, so it makes their problem worse, not better.</div></div></div></div></div><br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div id="bloop_sign_1490111635269603072" class="bloop_sign" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></div><br style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><p class="airmail_on" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">On March 21, 2017 at 2:17:40 AM, David Hart (<a href="mailto:david@hartbit.com" class="">david@hartbit.com</a>) wrote:</p><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">Perhaps it was a mistake, but I purposefully did not go into too much detail in the proposal because I think this debate is purely a question of philosophy on Swift and its language features. I did not want to add un-necessary bloat that would have added little rationalisation. Let me try to explain the holes in the proposal by answering your review:</div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 21 Mar 2017, at 02:26, Drew Crawford via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">I disagree quite strongly with the proposal.</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">First, the document draws conclusions without apparent supporting evidence, e.g.</p><blockquote class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;">> Since the release of Swift 3, the access level change of SE–0025 was met with dissatisfaction by a substantial proportion of the general Swift community. Those changes can be viewed as actively harmful, the new requirement for syntax/API changes.</div></blockquote><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">What is “dissatisfaction by a substantial proportion of the general Swift community”? How was this measured/determined?</li></ul></div></blockquote>It’s not feasible to measure precisely the feeling of a whole community. But we get a feeling for it by following the mailing-list, by talking to colleagues, by reading twitter, etc… And it think we all agree that the debate is highly divisive and that a “substantial proportion” of the community was dissatisfied: I’m not arguing that it is less or more than a majority. I’m just saying that we’ve seen a lot of talk against the original change.</div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">What was done to control for the population happy with SE-0025 who would e.g. not be likely to take up pitchforks?</li></ul></div></blockquote>That’s why its important we have this debate now.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Who argues these changes are “actively harmful” and where were they during SE-0025?</li></ul></div></blockquote><div class="">The proposal makes the argument that the changes are actively harmful. It’s now up to debate. By the way, even if several people (including me) were already against this proposal during the review, I don’t see why anybody would not have the right to change his mind, especially after several months of production usage and argue differently now.</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;">> subtly encourages overuse of scoped access control and discourages the more reasonable default</div></blockquote><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Who claims that scoped access is “overused” and what is their argument for doing so?</li><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Why is “fileprivate” the “more reasonable default”? In fact neither fileprivate *<em class="">nor*</em><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>private are default (reasonable or not!). Internal is the default. Nor does this proposal suggest we change that. So this seems a very strange statement.</li></ul></div></blockquote>By default, I did not mean the syntactic default of the language but the access modifier users will use “by default” when trying to restrict visibility. In most languages, that keyword is “private” so its valid to say that newcomers to the language will “default” to using that one. If the proposal is accepted, file-scoped private will regain that status.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;">> But is that distinction between private and fileprivate actively used by the larger community of Swift developers?</div></blockquote><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">Yes. To cite some evidence, here are codebases I actively maintain:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| codebase | private # | fileprivate # | ratio |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">|--------------------------------------------------------|-----------|---------------|-------|</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| "M" (proprietary) | 486 | 249 | 2x |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| "N"(proprietary) | 179 | 59 | 3x |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| NaOH<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>| 15 | 1 | 15x |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| atbuild<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> | 54 | 5 | 11x |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">So from my chair, not only is the distinction useful, but scoped access control (private) is overwhelmingly (2-15x) more useful than fileprivate.</p></div></blockquote><div class="">My own statistics in my projects show the contrary. At best, this shows how divisive this feature is. During the discussion of this proposal, it was argued that making decisions based upon project statistics would be dangerous:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><ul class="MailOutline"><li class="">In old code, statistics could be biased by the migrator having replaced all previous instances of private by fileprivate.</li><li class="">In new code, satistics could be biased by people using private because of it being the “soft-default”, regardless of proper semantics.</li></ul></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">> And if it were used pervasively, would it be worth the cognitive load and complexity of keeping two very similar access levels in the language? This proposal argues that answer to both questions is no</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">This proposal does not make any later argument about “cognitive load” or “complexity” I can identify. Did the proposal get truncated?</p></div></blockquote>Sorry if I did not state it explicitly, but I see any feature/keyword added to the language as “additional complexity”. And that complexity is completely worth it when the feature adds significant expressivity. I'm just arguing that the additional scope-based access modifier does not provide enough differentiation to be worth that complexity.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">What is stated (without evidence) is that "it is extremely common to use several extensions within a file” and that use of “private” is annoying in that case. I now extend the above table</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| codebase | private # | fileprivate # | ratio | # of extensions (>=3 extensions in file) |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">|--------------------------------------------------------|-----------|---------------|-------|------------------------------------------|</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| "M" (proprietary) | 486 | 249 | 2x | 48 |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| "N"(proprietary) | 179 | 59 | 3x | 84 |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| NaOH<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://code.sealedabstract.com/drewcrawford/NaOH</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>| 15 | 1 | 15x | 3 |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><font face="Courier New" class="">| atbuild<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/AnarchyTools/atbuild</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> | 54 | 5 | 11x | 6 |</font></p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">in order to demonstrate in my corner of Swift this is not “extremely common”, and is actually less popular than language features the proposal alleges aren’t used.</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">My point here is that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">**different people in different corners of the community program Swift differently and use different styles**</b>. I can definitely empathize with folks like the author who use extensions to group functions and are annoyed that their favorite visibility modifier grew four extra characters. Perhaps we can come up with a keyword that is more succint.</p></div></blockquote>I agree that different people in different corners use different styles. But you could use that argument to validate many features which would make a group of users happy; but all those feature together would just add bloat to the language. Swift has been known to be a very opinionated language, to keep the language simple yet expressive.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">However, that is no reason to take away features from working codebases. A scoped access modifier is perhaps my favorite feature in Swift 3. Let’s not throw stuff away because it adds extra characters to one programming style.</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">Finally, SE-0025 establishes clear motivation for the scoped access modifier:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">> Currently, the only reliable way to hide implementation details of a class is to put the code in a separate file and mark it as private. This is not ideal for the following reasons:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">> It is not clear whether the implementation details are meant to be completely hidden or can be shared with some related code without the danger of misusing the APIs marked as private. If a file already has multiple classes, it is not clear if a particular API is meant to be hidden completely or can be shared with the other classes.</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">> It forces a one class per file structure, which is very limiting. Putting related APIs and/or related implementations in the same file helps ensure consistency and reduces the time to find a particular API or implementation. This does not mean that the classes in the same file need to share otherwise hidden APIs, but there is no way to express such sharability with the current access levels.</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">As far as I can see, the proposal does not actually address or acknowledge these problems at all, but cheerfully returns us to them. It would be a mistake to deprecate this feature without examining at all why we introduced it. And realistically we need new solutions to those problems before removing the existing one.</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">Drew</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">On March 20, 2017 at 6:54:55 PM, Douglas Gregor (<a href="mailto:dgregor@apple.com" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">dgregor@apple.com</a>) wrote:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">Hello Swift community,</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">The review of SE–0159 “Fix Private Access Levels” begins now and runs through March 27, 2017. The proposal is available here:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager. When replying, please try to keep the proposal link at the top of the message:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">Proposal link:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0159-fix-private-access-levels.md</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Reply text Other replies What goes into a review?</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your review:</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">What is your evaluation of the proposal? Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift? Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift? If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those? How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study? More information about the Swift evolution process is available at</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md" class="" style="color: rgb(65, 131, 196); background-color: inherit; text-decoration: none;">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thank you,</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">-Doug</p><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">Review Manager</p><hr class="" style="height: 0.2em; border: 0px; color: rgb(204, 204, 204); background-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); display: inherit; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; 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