I agree that the current state of bug reporting through radars is unmotivating.<br><br>We file these bug reports and have no idea if it even made a difference. After seeing this many times we just don't bother with bug reports.<br><br>Sure I understand that internally apple uses duplicated issues to show how often an issue is happening. I guess those numbers motivate an apple engineer to work on it. Well guess what, those numbers could motivate every non-apple developer as well! We want to know that our "vote" counts!<br><br>Maybe the reason is that apple doesn't want to expose to the world that a bug exists and therefore keeps it a secret. It is hard to keep bugs a secret because eventually someone will blog about it or talk about it in a public MAILING LIST.<br><br>I would very much like it if we could see the original bug report and references to the duplicate reports so we know that our report made a difference.<br><br>Are there down sides to exposing bug reports to the public?<br><br>(Sorry for going off topic as well)<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 8:09 AM Nick Keets via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">I’m going OT here, but even though I understand your reasons, you need to acknowledge that for developers the rational thing to do is to not file radars at all.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">Any bug fix will get released at best a few months later and you can only actually take advantage of it a few years later (if you care about supporting older versions). More realistically we are talking 3-4 years of having to work around it (in the best cases). This is a lot of work (with almost zero feedback) for some far future benefit that probably will not even be relevant to you then.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">So to me, when an Apple developer asks me to file a radar, it feels like they are asking me to do their job.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">I’m sorry for the off-topic rant.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div><div class="gmail_extra gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg">On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Tony Parker via swift-evolution <span dir="ltr" class="gmail_msg"><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>></span> wrote:<br class="gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="m_-3636360590471748382h5 gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">On Feb 15, 2017, at 2:25 PM, Charles Srstka <<a href="mailto:cocoadev@charlessoft.com" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">cocoadev@charlessoft.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-3636360590471748382m_-2756522043402884407Apple-interchange-newline gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg">On Feb 15, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Itai Ferber <<a href="mailto:iferber@apple.com" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">iferber@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br class="gmail_msg"></blockquote><div class="gmail_msg"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><br class="m_-3636360590471748382m_-2756522043402884407Apple-interchange-newline gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><p dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="gmail_msg">FYI, Tony is the manager of the Foundation team. :)<br class="gmail_msg">We care very much about making sure that the experience of using our framework is a positive one — the more Radars we get, the better we can prioritize improving APIs that are not working as well as they could be for our users. Even if the Radar gets duped to an existing one, thats one more +1 for that Radar saying "this is a problem".</p></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_msg">Yeah I know, but it’s a frustrating experience, spending a half hour writing a detailed bug report (sometimes with videos attached to demonstrate the issue), just to effectively do the same thing as spending 5 seconds to hit the +1 button on most issue trackers you come across.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">Especially since you never find out what happened to the original bug report. You can see if it’s open or closed, but did they fix it in some internal build? Did they decide it “behaves correctly?” Did somebody just skim your report, and mistakenly attach it to some other, unrelated issue? There’s no way to know.</div><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><p dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="gmail_msg">I will search for your old Radar, but in any case, please do file a new one about this, and about any other issues you have, because we are indeed listening.</p></div></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_msg">I was pretty sure I'd submitted something way, way back in the misty days of yore, but I can’t find it. I’ve filed a couple of new ones: <a class="gmail_msg">rdar://30543037</a> and <a class="gmail_msg">rdar://30543133</a>.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">Charles</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div><div class="gmail_msg">Thanks for filing these.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">Sometimes, for process reasons, we do indeed mark bugs as dupes of other ones. Usually the polite thing to do is to dupe to the earliest filed one. Sometimes this comes across with an appearance of not caring to the filer of the new bug, but our intent is simply to consolidate the reports we have so that we know that the issue is serious.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">We do not make API changes without going through a vigorous review process, to avoid churn for the many clients above us. The flip side is that this can take some time. I’m sure you understand that all software engineering is about tradeoffs.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">All of that said, we’ll take a look at these and see what improvements we can make here. As I said, I’m not a fan of exception-based API.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">- Tony</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div><br class="gmail_msg">_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">
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