<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 6, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 5, 2017, at 3:20 PM, David Hart <<a href="mailto:david@hartbit.com" class="">david@hartbit.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">As they are heavily linked, should a change like this be included in the superclass + class proposal or separately?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'm heavily tending towards (1), and redefining:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">typealias Any = Any<></div><div class="">typealias AnyObject = Any<class></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Does that sound reasonable to you? Just checking before I rewrite this proposal sometime in the next couple of days.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Tricky business; you have a proposal that’s very likely to get universal support (adding class constraints to existentials) and one that’s likely to be controversial (changing existential syntax away from what we just adopted in Swift 3). My inclination is to separate the two, because I worry that the first proposal could get swallowed up in the discussion of the second… and it gets more messy if we have to detangle one proposal into two after running the review.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>+1 </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- Doug</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">David</div><div class=""><br class="">On 3 Feb 2017, at 18:12, Douglas Gregor <<a href="mailto:dgregor@apple.com" class="">dgregor@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 2, 2017, at 3:24 PM, David Hart <<a href="mailto:david@hartbit.com" class="">david@hartbit.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On 3 Feb 2017, at 00:04, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:54 PM, David Smith <<a href="mailto:david_smith@apple.com" class="">david_smith@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:20 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:44 PM, Adrian Zubarev <<a href="mailto:adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com" class="">adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;"><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">typealias AnyObject = …</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is nice to have, but how about if we fully drop the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">class</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>constraint-keyword and generalize<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">AnyObject</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>instead?</p></div></div></blockquote><div class="">That’s a good point. My *technical* goal is for AnyObject to cease to be a protocol, because it’s really describing something more fundamental (“it’s a class!”). Whether we spell that constraint as “class” or “AnyObject” doesn’t affect that technical goal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’d gravitated toward the “class” spelling because the idea of a class constraint seems most naturally described by “class”, and it’s precedented in C#.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, the changes in <a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0095-any-as-existential.md" class="">SE-0095</a> to make “Any” a more fundamental type (and not just a typealias) definitely open the door to doing the same thing with “AnyObject”—just make it a built-in notion in the language, and the spelling for a class constraint. It *certainly* works better with existentials.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">In the future we might want to add<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">AnyValue</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>with value (semantics) constraint, would that mean that we’d need another keyword there like<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">value</code>?</p></div></div></blockquote><div class="">“value” would be a terrible keyword, as you know. Point taken :)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If we did something like this, we would probably want it to be akin to ValueSemantics—not just “it’s a struct or enum”, but “it provides value semantics”, because not all structs/enums provide value semantics (but immutable classes do).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Speaking of the future directions:</p><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">Now that we’re no longer supporting the idea of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">Any<…></code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>syntax and any type prefixed with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">Any</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>seems to be special for its particular usage, could we safely bring the empty<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">Any</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>protocol back (is this somehow ABI related?)?</p></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class="">From an implementation standpoint, the choice to make AnyObject a magic protocol was a *horrible* decision. We have hacks throughout everything—the compiler, optimizers, runtime, and so on—that specifically check for the magic AnyObject protocol. So, rather than make Any a magic protocol, we need to make AnyObject *not* magic.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">One day after this proposal is accepted, implemented and released, we probably will talk about the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">where</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>clause for existentials. But since a lot of the existentials will have the form<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">typealias Abc = …</code>, this talk will also include the ability to constrain generic typealiases.</p></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class="">By “one day” I suspect you mean “some day” rather than “the day after” :)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Yes, I feel like this is a natural direction for existentials to go.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Looking ahead to when this is on the table, I'm a little worried about the syntactic implications of constrained existentials now that the Any<> syntax doesn't seem to be as popular. The obvious way to go would be</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">'X & Y where …'</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">But that leads to ambiguity in function declarations</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">func doTheThing<T>() -> X & Y where … where T == …</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">This could be resolved by requiring constrained existentials to be typealiased to return them, but I don't think there's any other situations where we require a typealias to use something, and it just feels like a workaround.</div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Types can be parenthesized, so that’s a workaround. But I too have some concerns here that we’re creating an ambiguity that users will trip over.</div></div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">On top of the ambiguity, I’m really sad that we dropped the Any<A, B, C> syntax because we lost the parallel to inheritance clauses which use the comma as separating character. They both represent similar concepts: a type inheriting and conforming and an existential represent all types which inherit and conform.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">I’ve got to ask, is there any chance that either of the two could happen:</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">1) Bring back the Any<A, B, C> syntax instead of A & B & C?</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">2) Replace the inheritance clause X : A, B, C to X : A & B & C?</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Both are possible, as is</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(3) Let A & B & C be a shortcut syntax for Any<A, B, C>, such that Any<…> is the more general version that also permits where clauses, “class” constraints, etc.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Note that (2) would kill me ;)</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">I know that both are severely source-breaking changes, but either of those would simplify the language by using the same syntax for two very similar concepts. Plus, number 1 would allow us to disambiguate function declarations. I know many people would rejoice having Any<> back.</div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Yes, they’re both significant source breakage. It’s source breakage of the “easy” kind, which only affects parsing and therefore makes it easy to keep supporting the Swift 3 syntax in Swift 4.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(3), on the other hand, isn’t a simplification at all… it’s admitting redundant syntax to avoid source breakage.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- Doug</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>