<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 3 Feb 2017, at 00:04, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 2, 2017, at 2:54 PM, David Smith <<a href="mailto:david_smith@apple.com" class="">david_smith@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:20 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:44 PM, Adrian Zubarev <<a href="mailto:adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com" class="">adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;"><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">typealias AnyObject = …</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is nice to have, but how about if we fully drop the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">class</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>constraint-keyword and generalize<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">AnyObject</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>instead?</p></div></div></blockquote><div class="">That’s a good point. My *technical* goal is for AnyObject to cease to be a protocol, because it’s really describing something more fundamental (“it’s a class!”). Whether we spell that constraint as “class” or “AnyObject” doesn’t affect that technical goal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’d gravitated toward the “class” spelling because the idea of a class constraint seems most naturally described by “class”, and it’s precedented in C#.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, the changes in <a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0095-any-as-existential.md" class="">SE-0095</a> to make “Any” a more fundamental type (and not just a typealias) definitely open the door to doing the same thing with “AnyObject”—just make it a built-in notion in the language, and the spelling for a class constraint. It *certainly* works better with existentials.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">In the future we might want to add<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">AnyValue</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>with value (semantics) constraint, would that mean that we’d need another keyword there like<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">value</code>?</p></div></div></blockquote><div class="">“value” would be a terrible keyword, as you know. Point taken :)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If we did something like this, we would probably want it to be akin to ValueSemantics—not just “it’s a struct or enum”, but “it provides value semantics”, because not all structs/enums provide value semantics (but immutable classes do).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;">Speaking of the future directions:</p><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">Now that we’re no longer supporting the idea of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">Any<…></code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>syntax and any type prefixed with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">Any</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>seems to be special for its particular usage, could we safely bring the empty<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">Any</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>protocol back (is this somehow ABI related?)?</p></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class="">From an implementation standpoint, the choice to make AnyObject a magic protocol was a *horrible* decision. We have hacks throughout everything—the compiler, optimizers, runtime, and so on—that specifically check for the magic AnyObject protocol. So, rather than make Any a magic protocol, we need to make AnyObject *not* magic.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="bloop_markdown" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);"><ul class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><li class="" style="margin: 15px 0px;"><p class="" style="margin: 15px 0px; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">One day after this proposal is accepted, implemented and released, we probably will talk about the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; -webkit-margin-before: 0px;">where</code><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>clause for existentials. But since a lot of the existentials will have the form<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><code class="" style="font-family: Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace; font-size: 10pt; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248); color: inherit; border: 1px solid rgb(234, 234, 234); margin: 0px 2px; padding: 0px 5px; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal;">typealias Abc = …</code>, this talk will also include the ability to constrain generic typealiases.</p></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class="">By “one day” I suspect you mean “some day” rather than “the day after” :)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Yes, I feel like this is a natural direction for existentials to go.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Looking ahead to when this is on the table, I'm a little worried about the syntactic implications of constrained existentials now that the Any<> syntax doesn't seem to be as popular. The obvious way to go would be</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">'X & Y where …'</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">But that leads to ambiguity in function declarations</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">func doTheThing<T>() -> X & Y where … where T == …</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">This could be resolved by requiring constrained existentials to be typealiased to return them, but I don't think there's any other situations where we require a typealias to use something, and it just feels like a workaround.</div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Types can be parenthesized, so that’s a workaround. But I too have some concerns here that we’re creating an ambiguity that users will trip over.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>On top of the ambiguity, I’m really sad that we dropped the Any<A, B, C> syntax because we lost the parallel to inheritance clauses which use the comma as separating character. They both represent similar concepts: a type inheriting and conforming and an existential represent all types which inherit and conform.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I’ve got to ask, is there any chance that either of the two could happen:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>1) Bring back the Any<A, B, C> syntax instead of A & B & C?</div><div>2) Replace the inheritance clause X : A, B, C to X : A & B & C?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I know that both are severely source-breaking changes, but either of those would simplify the language by using the same syntax for two very similar concepts. Plus, number 1 would allow us to disambiguate function declarations. I know many people would rejoice having Any<> back.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>David.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- Doug</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>