<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>+1. I like email way better than web forums for this kind of discussion.<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><br><div>Daniel Duan</div>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are working on this’ to actually make it ;)</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><br></div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail client cannot do that job that well. </div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><br></div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">Cannot wait 🤤</div> <br> <div id="bloop_sign_1485454377881835008" class="bloop_sign"><div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">-- <br>Adrian Zubarev<br>Sent with Airmail</div></div> <br><p class="airmail_on">Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution (<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>) schrieb:</p> <blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><span><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div></div><div>
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<div class="">On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via
swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution
<<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="">I have no problem with the project moving to forums
instead of the Mailman mailing lists we have now — if it is the
right set of tradeoffs.</div>
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<div class="">My preference is to approach the topic objectively,
working from goals and seeing how the mailing lists are aligning
with those goals and how an alternative, such as Discourse, might
do a better job.</div>
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<div class="">The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over
of how both LLVM does public discussion (which is all mailing
lists) and how the Swift team at Apple has used mailing lists for
discussion. That inertia has benefits in that it is a
familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t mean
it is the best option going forward.</div>
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<div class="">Here are some of the things that matter to me:</div>
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<div class="">- Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable
URLs for archives.</div>
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<div class="">- It is easy to reference other topics with a stable
(canonical) URL that allows you to jump into that other topic
easily. That’s hard to do if you haven’t already been
subscribed to the list.</div>
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<div class="">- Works fine with email clients, for those who want
to keep that workflow (again this inertia is important).</div>
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<div class="">- Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity
in communication, are a huge plus.</div>
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<div class="">I’d like to understand more the subjective comments
on this thread, such as "may intimidate newcomers”. This
feels very subjective, and while I am not disagreeing with that
statement I don’t fully understand its justification. Signing
up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and one isn’t
obligated to respond to threads. Are forums really any less
“intimating”? If so, why is that the case? Is this simply a
statement about mailing lists not being in vogue?</div>
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<div class="">I do also think the asynchronous nature of the
mailing lists is important, as opposed to discussions feeling like
a live chat. Live chat, such as the use of Slack the SwiftPM
folks have been using, is very useful too, but I don’t want
participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel
obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of
the communication on the lists.</div>
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<div class="">So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not
sacred — we can change what we use for our community discussions.
I just want an objective evaluation of the needs the mailing
lists are meant to serve, and work from there. If moving to
something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on a critical
piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in my
opinion) a bad direction to take. I’m not saying that is the
case, just that this is how I prefer we approach the
discussion.</div>
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<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very
promising. One *specific* way in which a motivated individual could
help would be to take a look at Discourse’s <a href="https://github.com/discourse/discourse/tree/master/script/import_scripts" class="">import scripts</a> and try importing
swift-evolution’s mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not
want to lose history when we switch technologies. Do the messages
import well? Are threading and topics maintained in a reasonable
manner? Does Discourse provide effective UI for looking into past
discussions on some specific topic we’re interested in?</div>
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<div>I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked
gem dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you
can see the results of an import (using one or two day old data) at
this address:</div>
<div><a href="http://discourse.natecook.com/" class="">http://discourse.natecook.com/</a></div>
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<div>It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they
bear some obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can
actually claim their accounts if they do a password reset.
However:</div>
<div>- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top
out at 100 emails/day</div>
<div>- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think
it's the real deal</div>
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<div>I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor
of forum-based solution over the mailing list (at least for this
group), and Discourse seems to be the best one running right now
(and fairly open to extension and customization). I made a new
topic here to demonstrate a couple features (code blocks and inline
images):</div>
<div><a href="http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051" class="">http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051</a></div>
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<div>Thanks -</div>
<div>Nate</div>
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