<div>I don't like mailing lists since it is very easy to forget about a topic. What I noticed about mailing lists is that the most controversial topics live the longest. I think swift-evolution should be able discussing the stuff that matters for the future of swift.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">I think the best choice for that would be JIRA.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">The whole swift evolution process can be better streamlined with this tool.<br class="gmail_msg">Each proposal goes through different states from development, to awaiting review, to being approved or rejected.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">We can make JIRA a part of the swift-evolution process. By incorporating the process as part of the workflow. The Jira board allows everyone to see what stage a proposal is in. You can see which have been rejected, approved, or defered.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">Each proposal can be written as part of a single JIRA story where the story can be modified after getting feed back. With mailing lists, you need to pile the most recent thing on the top and hope no one is replying to old content. The formatting is quite standard and we won't run into weird formatting issues. People can comment on the issue at hand and not get lost. People can reference other JIRA tickets which get turned into clickable links. People can reference other people. This helps when you are trying to tell one specific person something and not everyone.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">JIRA allows you to search for stories. In our case it will be proposals and we will find an easier time seeing what stage it is in.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">Speaking of stages, did everyone know that we are on Swift 4 stage 1? I didn't I thought we were on swift 3 stage xyz. We can name each board after the current swift version and stage. Often times a story is not appropriate for stage 1 and should be discussed again in the next stage. the JIRA board can be given the current Swift version and stage and anything that needs to be pushed back can move to a "re-evaluate in next stage" status. Once the new stage is set, we can simply move the story back in for discussion.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">I may not be the best at describing the best parts of JIRA, but i believe it may make the whole swift evolution process easier. <br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">In summary we should use JIRA because<br class="gmail_msg">* Story can be updated.<br class="gmail_msg">* No loss in context<br class="gmail_msg">* Google searchable<br class="gmail_msg">* Story Statuses (i.e. discuss, review, approved, implemented.etc)<br class="gmail_msg">* Standard UI<br class="gmail_msg">* Stories can reference each other<br class="gmail_msg">* Easy sign up<br class="gmail_msg">* email support</div><div>* attachments<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">Anyone else +1 JIRA?</div><div><br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:33 PM Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class="gmail_msg"></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote gmail_msg" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client. Having to participate in a web app is a regression in my experience.<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">Daniel Duan</div>Sent from my iPhone</div></div><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg">On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div id="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto" class="gmail_msg">Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what ‘are working on this’ to actually make it ;)</div><div id="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto" class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div id="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto" class="gmail_msg">I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My mail client cannot do that job that well. </div><div id="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto" class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div id="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto" class="gmail_msg">Cannot wait 🤤</div> <br class="gmail_msg"> <div id="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996bloop_sign_1485454377881835008" class="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996bloop_sign gmail_msg"><div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px" class="gmail_msg">-- <br class="gmail_msg">Adrian Zubarev<br class="gmail_msg">Sent with Airmail</div></div> <br class="gmail_msg"><p class="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996airmail_on gmail_msg">Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via swift-evolution (<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>) schrieb:</p> <blockquote type="cite" class="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996clean_bq gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_msg">
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_msg">On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via
swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996Apple-interchange-newline gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_msg">
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="gmail_msg">
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996Apple-interchange-newline gmail_msg">
On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution
<<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_5249576320353078867m_-6949679379051649996Apple-interchange-newline gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_msg">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg">
<div class="gmail_msg">I have no problem with the project moving to forums
instead of the Mailman mailing lists we have now — if it is the
right set of tradeoffs.</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">My preference is to approach the topic objectively,
working from goals and seeing how the mailing lists are aligning
with those goals and how an alternative, such as Discourse, might
do a better job.</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">The current use of mailing lists has been carry-over
of how both LLVM does public discussion (which is all mailing
lists) and how the Swift team at Apple has used mailing lists for
discussion. That inertia has benefits in that it is a
familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t mean
it is the best option going forward.</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">Here are some of the things that matter to me:</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">- Topics are easy to manage and search, with stable
URLs for archives.</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">- It is easy to reference other topics with a stable
(canonical) URL that allows you to jump into that other topic
easily. That’s hard to do if you haven’t already been
subscribed to the list.</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">- Works fine with email clients, for those who want
to keep that workflow (again this inertia is important).</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">- Code formatting, and other tools that add clarity
in communication, are a huge plus.</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">I’d like to understand more the subjective comments
on this thread, such as "may intimidate newcomers”. This
feels very subjective, and while I am not disagreeing with that
statement I don’t fully understand its justification. Signing
up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and one isn’t
obligated to respond to threads. Are forums really any less
“intimating”? If so, why is that the case? Is this simply a
statement about mailing lists not being in vogue?</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">I do also think the asynchronous nature of the
mailing lists is important, as opposed to discussions feeling like
a live chat. Live chat, such as the use of Slack the SwiftPM
folks have been using, is very useful too, but I don’t want
participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel
obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of
the communication on the lists.</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">So in short, using mailing lists specifically is not
sacred — we can change what we use for our community discussions.
I just want an objective evaluation of the needs the mailing
lists are meant to serve, and work from there. If moving to
something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on a critical
piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would (in my
opinion) a bad direction to take. I’m not saying that is the
case, just that this is how I prefer we approach the
discussion.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="gmail_msg">I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look very
promising. One *specific* way in which a motivated individual could
help would be to take a look at Discourse’s <a href="https://github.com/discourse/discourse/tree/master/script/import_scripts" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">import scripts</a> and try importing
swift-evolution’s mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not
want to lose history when we switch technologies. Do the messages
import well? Are threading and topics maintained in a reasonable
manner? Does Discourse provide effective UI for looking into past
discussions on some specific topic we’re interested in?</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="gmail_msg">- Doug</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">✋</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv, hand-tweaked
gem dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try this out—you
can see the results of an import (using one or two day old data) at
this address:</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><a href="http://discourse.natecook.com/" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://discourse.natecook.com/</a></div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">It looks like the threads were handled properly, though they
bear some obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users can
actually claim their accounts if they do a password reset.
However:</div>
<div class="gmail_msg">- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will top
out at 100 emails/day</div>
<div class="gmail_msg">- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't think
it's the real deal</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in favor
of forum-based solution over the mailing list (at least for this
group), and Discourse seems to be the best one running right now
(and fairly open to extension and customization). I made a new
topic here to demonstrate a couple features (code blocks and inline
images):</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><a href="http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051</a></div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg">Thanks -</div>
<div class="gmail_msg">Nate</div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
<div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">swift-evolution mailing list<br class="gmail_msg"><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="gmail_msg"><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></span></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg">_______________________________________________</span><br class="gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg">swift-evolution mailing list</span><br class="gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg"><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a></span><br class="gmail_msg"><span class="gmail_msg"><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></span><br class="gmail_msg"></div></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">
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</blockquote></div></div>