<div dir="ltr"><div>I too had to create an additional email account for Swift Evolution. And ended up removing it from Mail.app after a week, due to pure exhaustion. It's just overwhelming.</div><div><br></div><div>The fact that Swift's official channels require me signing up to a firehose and the fact that previous discussions on mailing lists are pretty much undiscoverable (list archives feel like stuck in the 90s when it comes to usability) has been the main factor deterring me from contributing to the Swift language or stdlib. It is just way too much a hassle.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not getting paid to work on Swift, so I make conscious choices on what to invest my personal time in. Mailing lists are not on that list. Same for JIRA. The convoluted user interface and bad performance of JIRA has been a major factor for me not filing more bugs. This plus the fact that Jira (last time I checked) doesn't support Swift highlighting and doesn't have half-decent support for unicode.</div><div><br></div><div>The "personal time" aspect is a big one, imho. For somebody being paid to work with a certain infrastructure it's easy to come to the conclusion that it "works for me" even if the experience is far from optimal. For somebody however who has to make the decision of whether or not to invest precious personal time into a system that's simply a pain in the rear, things like these become much more critical.</div><div><br></div><div>I agree 100% on this: <a href="https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170123/030867.html">https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170123/030867.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>I would like to propose moving all official discussion (and especially the "final comment period" stuff) to Github. I actually baffles me that this hasn't been proposed yet. It's kind of the obvious choice, no? Or maybe I'm just biased as a (Swift &) Rust user.</div><div><br></div><div>Rust has a dedicated repo for RFCs: <a href="http://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs">http://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs</a></div><div><br></div><div>Currently there are over 600 open issues being discussed (over 300 closed), as well as over 60 open PRs (over 850 closed).</div><div><br></div><div>It works beautifully.</div><div><br></div><div>You get Markdown-formatted proposals, Markdown-formatted comments, "Emotions" for giving "+1" feedback without spamming the entire list, selective watching on a per-issue level. Issues, PRs and discussions are well integrated. Issues/PRs can have tags for easy filtering. You're interested in libs? Filter by "T-libs" tag. I could go on and on…</div><div><br></div><div>As a result of all this I'm a casual contributor to Rust (as in actual commits) and its RFCs (as in Github comments), while I just can't be bothered to do the same for Swift right now. It's just no fun. Make it fun and I'll be on board the next day. And I'm probably not gonna be alone on this general stance.</div><div><br></div><div>I would like to encourage those responsible at Apple to take a serious look at how Rust handles these things.</div><div>Heck, why not just get in contact with their community team (<a href="https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/team.html#Community-team">https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/team.html#Community-team</a>) and ask them for recommendations based on their experience? Or just ask Graydon, Gankro or Huonh at Apple, who themselves used to be center-stage members of the Rust core community?</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84)">Ceterum censeo Mailman et Jira </span><span style="color:rgb(106,106,106)">sunt delendam.</span><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(106,106,106)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(106,106,106)">Vincent</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(106,106,106)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(106,106,106)">Ps: </span>I would give a clear -1 for any kind of chat system as those are horrible for archiving.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Joshua Alvarado via swift-evolution <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hey swifters,<div> I would like to (re)open up discussion on moving away from email for the swift evolution mailing list. I know this has probably been discussed before but it really should be addressed again. I wouldn't even know how to find if it has been discussed before because it would be too hard to go back through the history. </div><div><br></div><div>The main factors to move away from email is because email may deter newcomers, history, and threads. I may be speaking for myself when saying email may intimidate newcomers from expressing their opinions and thoughts. It is hard to know what has already been discussed and who is even in the active conversation. Keeping track of history is a pain as well. Searching through many emails to find who said what and when is not effective in email clients. Also, code formatting in emails is not effective. Let's discuss and actually make an action to move away from email if the community so agrees. Of course, recommendations are Slack, Hipchat (-1), and Gitter.</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="m_-4028442607577607810gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Joshua Alvarado<div><a href="mailto:alvaradojoshua0@gmail.com" target="_blank">alvaradojoshua0@gmail.com</a></div></div>
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