<html><head><style>
body {
font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
padding:1em;
margin:auto;
background:#fefefe;
}
h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6 {
font-weight: bold;
}
h1 {
color: #000000;
font-size: 28pt;
}
h2 {
border-bottom: 1px solid #CCCCCC;
color: #000000;
font-size: 24px;
}
h3 {
font-size: 18px;
}
h4 {
font-size: 16px;
}
h5 {
font-size: 14px;
}
h6 {
color: #777777;
background-color: inherit;
font-size: 14px;
}
hr {
height: 0.2em;
border: 0;
color: #CCCCCC;
background-color: #CCCCCC;
display: inherit;
}
p, blockquote, ul, ol, dl, li, table, pre {
margin: 15px 0;
}
a, a:visited {
color: #4183C4;
background-color: inherit;
text-decoration: none;
}
#message {
border-radius: 6px;
border: 1px solid #ccc;
display:block;
width:100%;
height:60px;
margin:6px 0px;
}
button, #ws {
font-size: 12 pt;
padding: 4px 6px;
border-radius: 5px;
border: 1px solid #bbb;
background-color: #eee;
}
code, pre, #ws, #message {
font-family: Monaco;
font-size: 10pt;
border-radius: 3px;
background-color: #F8F8F8;
color: inherit;
}
code {
border: 1px solid #EAEAEA;
margin: 0 2px;
padding: 0 5px;
}
pre {
border: 1px solid #CCCCCC;
overflow: auto;
padding: 4px 8px;
}
pre > code {
border: 0;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
#ws { background-color: #f8f8f8; }
.bloop_markdown table {
border-collapse: collapse;
font-family: Helvetica, arial, freesans, clean, sans-serif;
color: rgb(51, 51, 51);
font-size: 15px; line-height: 25px;
padding: 0; }
.bloop_markdown table tr {
border-top: 1px solid #cccccc;
background-color: white;
margin: 0;
padding: 0; }
.bloop_markdown table tr:nth-child(2n) {
background-color: #f8f8f8; }
.bloop_markdown table tr th {
font-weight: bold;
border: 1px solid #cccccc;
margin: 0;
padding: 6px 13px; }
.bloop_markdown table tr td {
border: 1px solid #cccccc;
margin: 0;
padding: 6px 13px; }
.bloop_markdown table tr th :first-child, table tr td :first-child {
margin-top: 0; }
.bloop_markdown table tr th :last-child, table tr td :last-child {
margin-bottom: 0; }
.bloop_markdown blockquote{
border-left: 4px solid #dddddd;
padding: 0 15px;
color: #777777; }
blockquote > :first-child {
margin-top: 0; }
blockquote > :last-child {
margin-bottom: 0; }
code, pre, #ws, #message {
word-break: normal;
word-wrap: normal;
}
hr {
display: inherit;
}
.bloop_markdown :first-child {
-webkit-margin-before: 0;
}
code, pre, #ws, #message {
font-family: Menlo, Consolas, Liberation Mono, Courier, monospace;
}
.send { color:#77bb77; }
.server { color:#7799bb; }
.error { color:#AA0000; }</style></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class="bloop_markdown"><p>There are official mobile apps for Discourse: <a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/discourse-app/id1173672076?ls=1&mt=8">iOS</a> & <a href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.discourse&hl=en">Android</a>.</p>
<p>I wonder how people would argue if we’d had started using a forum from the beginning and would now discuss a switch to an email list. That would be a real discussion about regression.</p>
<p></p></div><div class="bloop_original_html"><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><br></div> <br> <div id="bloop_sign_1485456180479043840" class="bloop_sign"><div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">-- <br>Adrian Zubarev<br>Sent with Airmail</div></div> <br><p class="airmail_on">Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:26:39, Daniel Duan (<a href="mailto:daniel@duan.org">daniel@duan.org</a>) schrieb:</p> <blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><span><div dir="auto"><div></div><div>
<title></title>
<div>I'm actually convinced that I'd rather use an email client.
Having to participate in a web app is a regression in my
experience.<br>
<br>
<div>Daniel Duan</div>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution
<<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">
Awesome :) Hopefully that will finally convince the people what
‘are working on this’ to actually make it ;)</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">
<br></div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">
I could find some really old threads of mine in just seconds. My
mail client cannot do that job that well. </div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">
<br></div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;">
Cannot wait 🤤</div>
<br>
<div id="bloop_sign_1485454377881835008" class="bloop_sign">
<div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">
-- <br>
Adrian Zubarev<br>
Sent with Airmail</div>
</div>
<br>
<p class="airmail_on">Am 26. Januar 2017 um 19:03:13, Nate Cook via
swift-evolution (<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>)
schrieb:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div><span><br class=""></span>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span>On Jan 25, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Douglas Gregor via
swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</span></div>
<span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution
<<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</span></div>
<span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div class=""><span>I have no problem with the project moving to
forums instead of the Mailman mailing lists we have now — if it is
the right set of tradeoffs.</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>My preference is to approach the topic
objectively, working from goals and seeing how the mailing lists
are aligning with those goals and how an alternative, such as
Discourse, might do a better job.</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>The current use of mailing lists has been
carry-over of how both LLVM does public discussion (which is all
mailing lists) and how the Swift team at Apple has used mailing
lists for discussion. That inertia has benefits in that it is
a familiar workflow that is “proven” to work — but the doesn’t mean
it is the best option going forward.</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>Here are some of the things that matter to
me:</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>- Topics are easy to manage and search, with
stable URLs for archives.</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>- It is easy to reference other topics with a
stable (canonical) URL that allows you to jump into that other
topic easily. That’s hard to do if you haven’t already been
subscribed to the list.</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>- Works fine with email clients, for those who
want to keep that workflow (again this inertia is
important).</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>- Code formatting, and other tools that add
clarity in communication, are a huge plus.</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>I’d like to understand more the subjective
comments on this thread, such as "may intimidate newcomers”.
This feels very subjective, and while I am not disagreeing
with that statement I don’t fully understand its justification.
Signing up for mailing lists is fairly straightforward, and
one isn’t obligated to respond to threads. Are forums really
any less “intimating”? If so, why is that the case? Is this
simply a statement about mailing lists not being in
vogue?</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>I do also think the asynchronous nature of the
mailing lists is important, as opposed to discussions feeling like
a live chat. Live chat, such as the use of Slack the SwiftPM
folks have been using, is very useful too, but I don’t want
participants on swift-evolution or any of our mailing lists feel
obligated to respond in real time — that’s simply not the nature of
the communication on the lists.</span></div>
<div class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div class=""><span>So in short, using mailing lists specifically
is not sacred — we can change what we use for our community
discussions. I just want an objective evaluation of the needs
the mailing lists are meant to serve, and work from there. If
moving to something like (say) Discourse would be a negative on a
critical piece that is well-served by the mailing lists, that would
(in my opinion) a bad direction to take. I’m not saying that
is the case, just that this is how I prefer we approach the
discussion.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span><br class=""></span></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span>I’ve looked into Discourse a bit, and it does look
very promising. One *specific* way in which a motivated individual
could help would be to take a look at Discourse’s <a href="https://github.com/discourse/discourse/tree/master/script/import_scripts" class="">import scripts</a> and try importing
swift-evolution’s mailing archives with them. We absolutely do not
want to lose history when we switch technologies. Do the messages
import well? Are threading and topics maintained in a reasonable
manner? Does Discourse provide effective UI for looking into past
discussions on some specific topic we’re interested
in?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span>- Doug</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div><span>✋</span></div>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div><span>I forged the mighty, turgid rivers of rubyenv,
hand-tweaked gem dependencies, and sed-cleaned mbox files to try
this out—you can see the results of an import (using one or two day
old data) at this address:</span></div>
<div><span><a href="http://discourse.natecook.com/" class="">http://discourse.natecook.com/</a></span></div>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div><span>It looks like the threads were handled properly, though
they bear some obvious marks of their mailing list origins. Users
can actually claim their accounts if they do a password reset.
However:</span></div>
<div><span>- it's hooked up to a trial SendGrid account, which will
top out at 100 emails/day</span></div>
<div><span>- I should probably delete this soon so Google doesn't
think it's the real deal</span></div>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div><span>I might have mentioned this before, but I'm strongly in
favor of forum-based solution over the mailing list (at least for
this group), and Discourse seems to be the best one running right
now (and fairly open to extension and customization). I made a new
topic here to demonstrate a couple features (code blocks and inline
images):</span></div>
<div><span><a href="http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051" class="">http://discourse.natecook.com/t/pitch-add-dark-mode-to-swift/3051</a></span></div>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div><span>Thanks -</span></div>
<div><span>Nate</span></div>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
<div><span><br class=""></span></div>
</div>
<span>_______________________________________________<br>
swift-evolution mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>swift-evolution mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></span></blockquote></div><div class="bloop_markdown"><p></p></div></body></html>