I think at this point we really need to build a concrete catalog of "warts" that cause implementation details to leak out of a module to consumers of a module (by extension submodule). I think that is the first things that should be looked at when considering making any changes to the access controls. I have a few code examples that I likely can pull together from real code that highlights some issues and I bet others do as well.<br><br>If we can collect these and look at them more holistically it would be helpful.<br><br>I think email is likely a week way to do this... hum...<br><br>-Shawn<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 7:51 AM Tino Heth via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:pre-wrap" class="gmail_msg">Well, anyways, with Swift 3 it no longer is as simple as it is in Obj-C. New modifiers were introduced by request. I feel it's good and means everybody agrees Obj-C modifiers aren't sufficient for Swift.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">Well… no ;-)</div><div class="gmail_msg">I'm not sure if there is a single thing in the universe where really everybody agrees on — right now, there is nothing more than a small group that has a vague agreement that there is room for improvement with the current access levels; most Swift users aren't even aware of this discussion at all (and most likely never will be ;-)</div>[In situations like this, I really dislike the restrictions of this medium… with something like a Wiki, it would be much easier to set up a table so that we could at least collect the opinions from the people discussing now.]</div><div class="gmail_msg"></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:pre-wrap" class="gmail_msg">What I mean, initial arguments should apply no more and I hope Apple will not be too rigid with current status.<br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">I agree on the latter — but it might be the case that fundamental changes to Swift won't be considered anymore</div></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"><blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:pre-wrap" class="gmail_msg">What I mean, though, the new introductions of access modifiers feel quite some "patchy".<br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_msg">Yes… but imho your suggestion which adds additional levels makes it even more patchy:</div><div class="gmail_msg">"protected" might be familiar to some developers, but "inner" is just a new magic word tacked onto the language.</div><div class="gmail_msg">For me, this is actually the worst direction to take: Adding more and more new modifiers instead of really rethinking the topic from scratch.</div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div><div class="gmail_msg"><br class="gmail_msg"></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">
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