<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I question the practicality of "<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">use private heavily simply because I don’t want the burden of mixing private and fileprivate". In our experience in converting a very mature Swift application, we had no choice but to use both because we </span><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">wanted private as much as possible but that's too restrictive in some cases. The granularity private and fileprivate provide is definitey a welcome change.</span></div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br><div>Daniel Duan</div>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Oct 13, 2016, at 3:11 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 13 Oct 2016, at 08:25, Jean-Daniel via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Le 13 oct. 2016 à 07:52, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">On Oct 12, 2016, at 9:56 PM, Russ Bishop via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">I actually consider it very lucky that most of our changes so far have been fairly non-controversial. Everybody has a different idea of what would make Swift a better language, and all of us well-meaning. But when those ideas conflict, some group is going to end up unhappy. I'm actually very glad that (a) we haven't had too many of these cases, and (b) even when we have, people have been able to accept it and move on to contributing to the next issue.</div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Strong agreement here as well. This proposal has been litigated numerous times already, and the bar for source-breaking changes is much higher now. To effectively re-open the discussion would require a proposal that significant changes the model with a lot of evidence that such a new model is a drastic improvement over what we have now. “Back out SE-0025” is not a viable option now.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>- Doug</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">Not really. This proposal could be backed out without source-breaking changes by treating private as a synonym for fileprivate and we’d have Swift 2 behavior without breaking source. If the core team doesn’t want to consider that then we can just move on and live with it. </div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Not speaking for the core team, just MHO:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree with Russ here, and with others who have said upthread that the “thing that has changed” is that we are starting to get usage experience with fileprivate vs private. I think we all understand the value of having fewer access control levels, and so if “private” isn’t conceptually pulling its weight, then it is reasonable to consider phasing it out.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That said, there is no specific rush to have this discussion, and I think it is reasonable to put a pretty high burden of proof on someone who wants to drive such a proposal. For example, if we had the discussion in the spring timeframe, we should have a pretty large body of Swift 3 code readily at hand (e.g. SwiftPM packages and other various github repos).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Given that, it should be easy enough to see how widely private is actually being used in practice. If it is very rare, then the argument to ditch it (make it a synonym for fileprivate, and eventually phasing out fileprivate) is strong. If lots of people are using private and only some are using fileprivate, then the discussion is quite different.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-Chris</div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">I don’t think monitoring the usage of private vs fileprivate is fair. By default, people will use private until they encounter visibility issues and discover they need to change to fileprivate. So private will probably being use far more than fileprivate.</div><div class="">Nonetheless it does not mean people chosen private because it effectively reduce the visibility to the class scope, but just because it is easier to discover and to type than fileprivate and fit in many cases.</div><br class=""><div class="">I tend to write class will all ivars private by default (as it is a sensible default), and then, when I start to write extensions and other parts, I have to switch to fileprivate for a bunch of ivars. It create an inconsistent mess in my ivars declaration as it is difficult to know if an ivar is private because I has to be, or because I didn’t encounter a case that need it to be fileprivate instead.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Honestly, I don’t see any value in the introduction of fileprivate.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">I also agree that monitoring the usage of private vs fileprivate is not fair. I now use private heavily simply because I don’t want the burden of mixing private and fileprivate (and find the name of fileprivate slightly verbose/ugly). But that does not mean I would vote for keeping private. I would still vote for going back to Swift 2 behaviour. But I agree that we can wait until the summer to look at this again.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>swift-evolution mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>