<div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 22, 2016, at 9:04 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">on Fri Jul 22 2016, Matthew Johnson <</span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">> wrote:</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:37 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution<br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br>On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution<br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br></blockquote><br><blockquote type="cite"><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br>wrote:<br><br>on Fri Jul 22 2016, Daniel Duan <<a href="http://daniel-at-duan.org/" target="_blank">daniel-AT-duan.org</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 22, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution<br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br>wrote:<br><br><br>on Fri Jul 22 2016, Daniel Duan<br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>>><br>wrote:<br><br></blockquote><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 22, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution<br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>>><br>wrote:<br><br><br>on Thu Jul 21 2016, Duan<br></blockquote><br><blockquote type="cite"><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>>>><br>wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Great proposal. I want to second that areSame may mislead user to<br>think this is about identity.<br><br>I like areEquivalent() but there may be better names.<br></blockquote><br>It really *is* about identity as I posted in a previous message. But<br>that doesn't change the fact that areEquivalent might be a better name.<br>It's one of the things we considered; it just seemed long for no real<br>benefit.<br><br></blockquote><br>If the addresses of the arguments aren’t being used, then we don’t consider<br>them part of their *identity*. I can follow this logic. My fear is most users<br>won’t make this leap on their own and get the same initial impression as I did.<br>It's entirely possible this fear is unfounded. Some educated bikesheding<br>wouldn't hurt here IMO :)<br></blockquote><br>Well, it's still a very real question whether we ought to have the<br>additional API surface implied by areSame, or wether we should collapse<br>it with ===.<br><br></blockquote><br>To spell this out (because I had to think about it for a second): === will be derived from<br><=>,<br>but also becomes default implementation for ==, which remains open for<br>customization.<br></blockquote><br>I was imagining roughly this (untested):<br><br> /// Two references are identical if they refer to the same<br> /// instance.<br> ///<br> /// - Note: Classes with a more-refined notion of “identical”<br> /// should conform to `Identifiable` and implement `===`.<br> func ===(lhs: AnyObject, rhs: AnyObject) -> Bool {<br> ObjectIdentifier(lhs) == ObjectIdentifier(rhs)<br> }<br><br> /// Supports testing that two values of `Self` are identical<br> ///<br> /// If `a` and `b` are of type `Self`, `a === b` means that<br> /// `a` and `b` are interchangeable in most code. A conforming<br> /// type can document that specific observable characteristics<br> /// (such as the `capacity` of an `Array`) are inessential and<br> /// thus not to be considered as part of the interchangeability<br> /// guarantee.<br> ///<br> /// - Requires: `===` induces an equivalence relation over<br> /// instances.<br> /// - Note: conforming types will gain an `==` operator that<br> /// forwards to `===`.<br> /// - Note: Types that require domain-specific `==`<br> /// implementations with different semantics (e.g. floating<br> /// point) should define a more-specific overload of `==`,<br> /// which will be used in contexts where the static type is<br> /// known to the compiler.<br> /// - Note: Generic code should usually use `==` to compare<br> /// conforming instances; that will always dispatch to `===`<br> /// and will be unaffected by more specific overloads of<br> /// `==`.<br> protocol Identifiable { // née Equatable name is negotiable<br> func ===(_: Self, _: aSelf) -> Bool<br> }<br><br> /// Default definition of `==` for Identifiable types.<br> func ==<T: Identifiable>(lhs: T, rhs: T) -> Bool {<br> return lhs === rhs<br> }<br><br> /// Conforming types have a default total ordering.<br> ///<br> /// If `a` and `b` are of type `Self`, `a <=> b` means that<br> /// `a` and `b` are interchangeable in most code. A conforming<br> /// type can document that specific observable characteristics<br> /// (such as the `capacity` of an `Array`) are inessential and<br> /// thus not to be considered as part of the interchangeability<br> /// guarantee.<br> ///<br> /// - Requires: `<=>` induces a total ordering over<br> /// instances.<br> /// - Requires: the semantics of `<=>` are consistent with<br> /// those of `===`. That is, `(a <=> b) == .equivalent`<br> /// iff `a === b`.<br><br>For floating point, I'd hope that `a === b` if `(a <=> b) == .same` *but not iff*. This is to satisfy IEEE 754: "Comparisons shall ignore the sign of zero (so +0 = −0)”.<br></blockquote><br>The point of this design is that `===` means identity and that `.same ` also means identity.<br><br>Since this is new territory I suppose we get to decide what identity<br>means for floating point. Should +0 and -0 have the same identity or<br>not? I’ll leave the answer to folks more knowledgable about numerics<br>than I.<br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">It's settled law<span> </span></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point#Total-ordering_predicate" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point#Total-ordering_predicate</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">:-)</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>Yes, assuming we want to define identity in terms of the IEEE definition of total ordering.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I see what you're saying here. That could work. Comparable `===` and Equatable `<=>` could do its own thing, and FloatingPoint `isTotallyOrdered(below:)` can preserve the IEEE definition of total ordering.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite"> /// - Note: conforming types will gain `<`, `<=`, `>`, and `>=`<br> /// operators defined in terms of `<=>`.<br> /// - Note: Types that require domain-specific `<`, etc.<br> /// implementations with different semantics (e.g. floating<br> /// point) should define more-specific overloads of those<br> /// operators, which will be used in contexts where the<br> /// static type is known to the compiler.<br> /// - Note: Generic code can freely use `<=>` or the traditional<br> /// comparison operators to compare conforming instances;<br> /// the result will always be supplied by `<=>`<br> /// and will be unaffected by more specific overloads of<br> /// the other operators.<br> protocol Comparable : Identifiable {<br> func <=> (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Ordering<br> }<br><br> /// Default implementations of `<`, `<=`, `>`, and `>=`.<br> extension Comparable {<br> static func <(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {<br> return (lhs <=> rhs) == .ascending<br> }<br> static func <=(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {<br> return (rhs <=> lhs) != .ascending<br> }<br> static func >(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {<br> return (lhs <=> rhs) == .descending<br> }<br> static func >=(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {<br> return (rhs <=> lhs) != .descending<br> }<br> }<br><br><blockquote type="cite">I like this idea. If we keep === as a separate thing, now users have 3 “opportunities” to define<br>equality. The must be few, if any, use cases for this.<br><br>Would love to see if anyone on the list can give us an example. Otherwise we should make<br>areSame === again™!<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Daniel Duan<br>Sent from my iPhone<br><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:32 PM, Robert Widmann via swift-evolution<br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br>wrote:<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Xiaodi Wu<br><<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a><br><<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>>><br>wrote:<br><br>This is nice. Is `areSame()` being proposed because static `==` is<br>the status quo and you're trying to make the point that `==` in the<br>future need not guarantee the same semantics?<br></blockquote><br>Yep! Equivalence and equality are strictly very different things.<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br>Nit: I think the more common term in stdlib would be<br>`areEquivalent()`. Do you think `same` in that context (independent<br>of the word "ordering") might erroneously suggest identity?<br></blockquote><br>There is room for improvement here. Keep ‘em coming.<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><blockquote type="cite">On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Robert Widmann via<br>swift-evolution<br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br>wrote:<br>Hello Swift Community,<br><br>Harlan Haskins, Jaden Geller, and I have been working on a<br>proposal to clean up the semantics of ordering relations in the<br>standard library. We have a draft that you can get as a gist.<br>Any feedback you might have about this proposal helps - though<br>please keeps your comments on Swift-Evolution and not on the gist.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>~Robert Widmann<br><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>swift-evolution mailing list<br><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a>><br><br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>swift-evolution mailing list<br><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a>><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>swift-evolution mailing list<br><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" 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target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a>>>><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>swift-evolution mailing list<br><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a>><br><<a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" 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target="_blank">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br><br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">--<span> </span></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Dave</span><br 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