<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br><br>Regards<div>LM</div><div>(From mobile)</div></div><div><br>On Jun 27, 2016, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 27, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">on Wed Jun 22 2016, Matthew Johnson <</span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">> wrote:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Jun 22, 2016, at 1:55 PM, Dmitri Gribenko<br class=""><<a href="mailto:gribozavr@gmail.com" class="">gribozavr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution<br class=""><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>><br class="">wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Proposal:<br class=""><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0041-conversion-protocol-conventions.md" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0041-conversion-protocol-conventions.md</a><br class=""><br class="">Rejection: "The feedback on the proposal was generally positive about the<br class="">idea of renaming these protocols, but the specific names in the proposal are<br class="">not well received, and there is no apparent confluence in the community on<br class="">better names. The core team prefers discussion to continue -- if/when there<br class="">is a strong proposal for a better naming approach, we can reconsider<br class="">renaming these."<br class=""><br class="">John McCall: "To be clear, I don't care about the name. If you want to<br class="">rename IntegerLiteralConvertible to IntegerLiteral or whatever, I won't drag<br class="">the conversation into the muck again. :) It's the design of the<br class="">requirements that I'm pretty opposed to revisiting."<br class=""><br class="">The Problem: This is really the last chance to rationalize this across the<br class="">language and to evaluate whether other protocol groups should have a core<br class="">scheme for naming.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Hi Erica,<br class=""><br class="">I would like to re-state the feedback from Dave Abrahams, Max Moiseev<br class="">and me from the last time this was discussed. Unfortunately I can't<br class="">find the exact email, so I can't provide a link.<br class=""><br class="">- The "literal" protocols are not about conversion, they are about<br class="">adopting a certain syntax provided by the language. "Convertible" in<br class="">the name is a red herring: a type can't be convertible from an integer<br class="">literal because there is no "IntegerLiteral" entity in the type<br class="">system. The literal *becomes* typed as the corresponding literal type<br class="">(e.g., Int or String), and as far as the user at the call site is<br class="">concerned, there is no visible conversion (even if one is happening<br class="">behind the scenes).<br class=""><br class="">Our suggestion was to focus on the "adopting the syntax" part. We<br class="">suggested moving the "literal convertible" protocols into a<br class="">pseudo-namespace "Syntax". It could be implemented like this:<br class=""><br class="">protocol _IntegerLiteralSyntax {}<br class="">enum Syntax {<br class="">typealias IntegerLiteral = _IntegerLiteralSyntax<br class="">}<br class=""><br class="">And used like this:<br class=""><br class="">struct Int : Syntax.IntegerLiteral {}<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I’m working on a draft of this proposal right now. I have a couple questions. <br class=""><br class="">First, I’d like to list the standard library team as co-authors if you<br class="">desire because this is really your idea. Let me know what you would<br class="">prefer.<br class=""><br class="">Second, I wonder if it might make more sense to name the protocols<br class="">`Syntax.IntegerLiteralInitializable`. Dave has opposed<br class="">`Initializable` as a general convention because it implies pure syntax<br class="">and doesn’t carry any semantics. But in this case the semantics *are*<br class="">essentially the syntax. Erica pointed out to me off list that at the<br class="">usage site the `Syntax.IntegerLiteral` names could confuse somebody<br class="">into thinking in terms of *isa* rather than *can do* (i.e. Int is an<br class="">IntegerLiteral rather than Int can be *initialized* with an<br class="">IntegerLiteral).<br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Really, this is exactly the sense in which we want it to be interpreted.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">It is *not* a capability. There is no such thing as an IntegerLiteral</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">instance from which one can initialize an Int. There are only syntactic</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">integer literals, which, given the right type context, can be-a Int.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">The intializer one gets from the protocol is merely the mechanism used</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">by the compiler to create this Int.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>That is a technically correct statement, but I think the model most programmers will have (good or bad) is of initializing with an integer literal. I think this is evidenced to some degree by the feedback people are providing on the names.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Perpetuating the wrong idea does not make it a good idea... There was Ptolemy and then there was Galileo.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div>That said, I am trying to stay out of the fray of the bike shedding on this. IMO the most important thing is to do *something* here as long as its reasonable and the solution suggested by the standard library team is definitely reasonable. That is why I have written the proposal exactly as the standard library team suggested. :) </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">Please let me know if this name change would be acceptable to the<br class="">standard library team or may be met with resistance. I want this<br class="">proposal to be acceptable to the team from the start.<br class=""><br class="">Matthew<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">- For protocols that are representing conversions between types that<br class="">actually exist in the library, there is not enough precedent yet to<br class="">make a general conclusion and standardize a pattern.<br class=""><br class="">Dmitri<br class=""><br class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">main(i,j){for(i=2;;i++){for(j=2;j<i;j++){if(!(i%j)){j=0;break;}}if<br class="">(j){printf("%d\n",i);}}} /*Dmitri Gribenko<br class=""><<a href="mailto:gribozavr@gmail.com" class="">gribozavr@gmail.com</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:gribozavr@gmail.com" class="">mailto:gribozavr@gmail.com</a>>>*/<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; 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