<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 14, 2016, at 8:16 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">As you will see from earlier messages, the confused user is both quite real and *is* on this list. Nor, mind you, are pedagogical concerns to be trivialized; they are serious concerns for the design of the language. On what grounds do you assert that something is "not confusing at all" when there has been testimony saying "it was confusing to me"?<br class=""><br class="">Some of us on this list interact regularly with novice coders. I draw upon these experiences here. Do you have some special insight you'd like to share in that regard?<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 20:57 Jon Akhtar <<a href="mailto:jona@herbalife.com" class="">jona@herbalife.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="">How about the goal of it being a delightful language to program in. I think that is getting lost in proposals like these. Optimizing for some mythical new user, who really isn’t present on this list to give an opinion seems like a false argument to make,
and your technical sophistication makes you a less qualified than most to say what is and what isn’t confusing to new users because you haven’t been one in a long time.</div>
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<div class="">-1 Leve it in. It is perfectly simple as is. Not confusing at all. There are far more confusing aspects to the language than this.</div>
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<div class="">Cheers</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div>Yet another case from a few minutes ago:</div><div><br class=""></div><div><div id="ND4GEX4IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><a href="member:rullie" title="~rullie@dhcp-108-168-106-227.cable.user.start.ca" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">rullie</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">hi, could someone walk me through this <a href="http://pastie.org/10887040" class="">http://pastie.org/10887040</a></span></div><div id="L3N8GM5IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:08pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:rullie" title="~rullie@dhcp-108-168-106-227.cable.user.start.ca" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">rullie</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">why is it that for loop through an lazy infinite sequence does not terminate even with the where clause invovled?</span></div><div class="event" style="color: rgb(170, 170, 170); text-align: center; padding: 0px 5px 2px; word-wrap: break-word; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span></div><div id="XHIECK6IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:08pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:mikeash" title="~mikeash@mikeash.com" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">mikeash</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">"where" means "skip iterations when this condition is not true"</span></div><div id="W9KX3Q6IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:08pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:mikeash" title="~mikeash@mikeash.com" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">mikeash</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">it doesn't mean "halt the loop when this is not true"</span></div><div id="IQTEHY6IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:08pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:rullie" title="~rullie@dhcp-108-168-106-227.cable.user.start.ca" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">rullie</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">oh whoa.. ok</span></div><div id="B3V7ET7IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:09pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:mikeash" title="~mikeash@mikeash.com" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">mikeash</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">it can't know that you'll never see another value < 100, <a href="member:so" class="member" style="color: inherit; text-decoration: none !important;">so</a> it keeps on going</span></div><div id="CHWY4H8IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:09pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:rullie" title="~rullie@dhcp-108-168-106-227.cable.user.start.ca" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">rullie</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">ok, i completely misunderstood the where clause then</span></div><div id="OCXF5W8IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:10pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:mikeash" title="~mikeash@mikeash.com" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">mikeash</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">I can see how it might look like it does that</span></div><div id="R1LJ8M9IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">[</span><span class="timestamp" style="display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">3:10pm</span><span class="hidden timestamp" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px; display: block; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 5px; float: right; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); word-wrap: normal;">] </span><a href="member:rullie" title="~rullie@dhcp-108-168-106-227.cable.user.start.ca" class="member" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 153, 0); text-decoration: none !important; margin-right: 0.5ex; white-space: nowrap;">rullie</a><span class="hidden" style="position: fixed; top: -900px; left: -900px;">: </span><span class="message" style="word-wrap: break-word;">is there a syntax that achieves what i want to do without having to have a if-break in the loop?</span></div><div id="R1LJ8M9IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><br class=""></div><div id="R1LJ8M9IKZ5" class="envelope" style="padding: 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 3px; font-family: -webkit-standard;"><div style="font-family: Palatino;">-- E</div><div style="font-family: Palatino;">p.s. Posted with permission from both participants</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></body></html>