<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">This is precisely the point I was trying to make.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“nil” is a holdover from other languages; i.e. we are comfortable with using it. I think there are better alternatives to consider.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, when evaluating whether it makes sense with swift, I think it fails some of the criteria for inclusion.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My biggest bet why people are against .none is that the . looks noisy and unclean. This is why I am suggesting “none” as sugar for .none even though it might seem quite silly.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I also bet that 9 times out of 10, when people see nil they think of pointers and <b class="">not</b> optionals. Maybe this will take time to retrain ourselves to think optionality, but now nil is used for different things in different languages</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Brandon</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 8, 2016, at 10:56 AM, Vladimir.S via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Reading the thread.. I wonder if we need "nil" at all, why not use (just a question, not a suggestion) .none ? I.e. now we can use nil and .none in the same situations, .none is just 2 symbols longer, '.none' highlight that Optional is a special type (that there is .some(T) in Optional), no confusion if it is related to pointers etc.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">var i : Int? = 10</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">if i != .none { print(i) }</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">i = .none</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">print(i)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">var i : Int? = 10</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">if i != nil { print(i) }</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">i = nil</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">print(i)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">i.e. the same thing expressed in 2 different but similar ways. Probably I'm missing something.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On 08.06.2016 12:33, J. Charles M. N. via swift-evolution wrote:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">I'am not either for removing nil nor renaming it none, I think that they<br class="">are conceptually different things.<br class=""><br class="">This syntactic sugar brings unfortunately many things around. One<br class="">fastidious thing is it multiple semantics: As null pointer. As none value.<br class="">I am personally not favorable for multiples semantics keywords.<br class=""><br class="">Aside, if it come up to revisiting nil concept we should bring the other<br class="">chimera (unit, Void, bottom type etc).<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">J. Charles<br class=""><br class="">Le 8 juin 2016 à 04:18, Muse M via swift-evolution<br class=""><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>> a écrit :<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">None would be similar to Null or nothing about the types in that sense<br class="">which None is not a type.<br class="">Nil would be interpret as Int, Float, String, etc<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Dany St-Amant via swift-evolution<br class=""><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""> No clue as to the origins, but if you insist on using none. you can do:<br class=""><br class=""> let a : Int? = .none<br class=""> let b : Int? = .some(5)<br class=""><br class=""> Using the simpler<br class=""><br class=""> let a : Int? = nil<br class=""> let b : Int? = 5<br class=""><br class=""> is just sugar.<br class=""> Maybe it was foresight to prevent people from saying, if I can do:<br class=""><br class=""> let a : Int? = none<br class=""><br class=""> Why can't I do:<br class=""><br class=""> let b : Int? = some(5)<br class=""><br class=""> And then go a step further by asking for all enum to be access<br class=""> without the leading dot; scary thought.<br class=""><br class=""> So it may be better to stick with '.none' and sugared 'nil'.<br class=""><br class=""> Dany<br class=""><br class=""> Le 7 juin 2016 à 20:16, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution<br class=""> <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>> a écrit :<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""> That's exactly the point I was going for.<br class=""><br class=""> none makes more sense in this context than nil in my opinion<br class=""><br class=""> Brandon<br class=""><br class=""> On Jun 7, 2016, at 8:10 PM, Saagar Jha <<a href="mailto:saagarjha28@gmail.com" class="">saagarjha28@gmail.com</a><br class=""> <<a href="mailto:saagarjha28@gmail.com" class="">mailto:saagarjha28@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""> Well, some is the opposite of none in that if I don’t have some, I<br class=""> have none. nil is just a carry-over from Objective-C.<br class=""><br class=""> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:07 PM Brandon Knope via swift-evolution<br class=""> <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""> I guess for me it comes down to this:<br class=""><br class=""> *Why were some and none chosen for as the cases for Optional?*<br class=""><br class=""> As an extension of that, why does nil then represent none<br class=""> instead of the obvious none?<br class=""><br class=""> There has to be a reason why it's not:<br class=""><br class=""> enum Optional<T> {<br class=""> case some(T)<br class=""> case nil<br class=""> }<br class=""><br class=""> None seems a lot more expressive and consistent with Optional.<br class=""><br class=""> I am comfortable and use to nil, but with swift being a new<br class=""> language, I thought it was worth opening up a discussion about<br class=""> possibly changing direction a little here.<br class=""><br class=""> Thanks,<br class=""> Brandon<br class=""><br class=""> On Jun 7, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Jordan Rose <<a href="mailto:jordan_rose@apple.com" class="">jordan_rose@apple.com</a><br class=""> <<a href="mailto:jordan_rose@apple.com" class="">mailto:jordan_rose@apple.com</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""> There are NilLiteralConvertible types other than Optional, but<br class=""> they’re dwindling now that pointer nullability is represented<br class=""> by Optional. That said, I’m not convinced renaming “nil” is<br class=""> worth it at this point. Similarity with other languages is<br class=""> still a good thing.<br class=""><br class=""> It’s true that we might not have picked nil if it hadn’t been<br class=""> for Objective-C, but that doesn’t make it an invalid choice.<br class=""> There are lots of things in Swift we might have done<br class=""> differently if it weren’t for Objective-C and Cocoa.<br class=""><br class=""> Jordan<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""> On Jun 5, 2016, at 12:35, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution<br class=""> <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""> <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""> Quick thought:<br class=""><br class=""> If optional has a .none case, wouldn't it be more consistent<br class=""> to rename nil to none?<br class=""><br class=""> Also, would nil make it into Swift if not for other languages?<br class=""><br class=""> It also might make it somewhat clearer:<br class=""><br class=""> var someInt: Int? = none //looks less like a pointer and more<br class=""> like a value of nothing<br class=""><br class=""> 1. It is more consistent with the optional enum<br class=""> 2. The intent is arguably clearer<br class=""> 3. nil makes it seem like it's a pointer<br class=""> 4. Would nil be included if not for prior languages? Would<br class=""> "none" have been chosen as the keyword if nil wasn't prior art?<br class=""><br class=""> One disadvantage is how close it is to .none, but with how<br class=""> common nil/none is used, some syntactic sugar might make it<br class=""> look nicer than always having the stray .<br class=""><br class=""> On vacation from Orlando, poolside, with a quick thought,<br class=""> Brandon<br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br class=""> <a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></blockquote> _______________________________________________<br class=""> swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br class=""> <a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""><br class=""> --<br class=""> -Saagar Jha<br class=""></blockquote> _______________________________________________<br class=""> swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br class=""> <a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br class=""> <a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org</a>><br class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">swift-evolution mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>