<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Thorsten Seitz via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="">Am 02.06.2016 um 07:42 schrieb Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class="">Excellent.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I put together a PR with a revised proposal containing the core team's recommended approach. If anyone is curious they can see it here: <a href="https://github.com/austinzheng/swift-evolution/blob/ef6adbe0fe09bff6c44c6aa9d73ee407629235ce/proposals/0095-any-as-existential.md" class="">https://github.com/austinzheng/swift-evolution/blob/ef6adbe0fe09bff6c44c6aa9d73ee407629235ce/proposals/0095-any-as-existential.md</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Since this is the de-facto second round discussion thread, I'll start with my personal opinion (which is *not* reflected in the PR): the '&' separators in lieu of commas are a good idea, but I would still prefer the types to be wrapped in "Any<>", at least when being used as existentials.</div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I'm very happy with using `&` as I find this very readable.</span><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">I would prefer not having to wrap them into `Any<>`. While I can image `Any<>`, or rather `any<>`, for existentials with `where` clauses, I would absolutely hate having to wrap all existentials into that which would introduce a lot of noise. <br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My reasons:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- Jordan Rose brought up a good point in one of the discussion threads today: a resilience goal is to allow a library to add an associated type to a protocol that had none and not have it break user code. If this is true whatever syntax is used for existentials in Swift 3 should be a valid subset of the generalized existential syntax used to describe protocol compositions with no associated types.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>If `P` is an existential there is no problem either, isn't it? No need to require `Any<P>`. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- I would rather have "Any<>" be used consistently across all existential types eventually than have it only be used for (e.g.) existential types with `where` constraints, or allowing two different representations of the same existential type (one with Any, and one without).</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Far too much noise!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- I think any generalized existential syntax without delimiting markers (like angle braces) is harder to read than syntax with such markers, so I would prefer a design with those markers.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I think markers are only needed if a `where` clause is present and probably not even then.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>The only reason to require them generally is if they are required for disambiguation in specific syntactic positions and it would be too confusing to remember where parentheses are required. If that isn’t the case they should not be required. It would be interesting to hear from someone closer to the grammar about whether an enclosing syntactic context would ever be required for disambiguation or not.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If we don’t require them, parentheses can still be used for clarity when desired.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-Thorsten </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Austin</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 1, 2016, at 10:17 PM, Chris Lattner <<a href="mailto:clattner@apple.com" class="">clattner@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Jun 1, 2016, at 9:53 PM, Austin Zheng <<a href="mailto:austinzheng@gmail.com" class="">austinzheng@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">This was indeed a very thorough review by the core team. I'll prepare a v2 proposal with this feedback taken into account so we can continue moving things along.<br class=""><br class="">One quick question - is making whatever syntax is chosen for Swift 3 "forward-compatible" with a future generalized existential feature a concern?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Yes it is a concern, but we assume that the “X & Y” syntax will always be accepted going forward, as sugar for the more general feature that is yet to be designed.<br class=""><br class="">-Chris</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span class="">_______________________________________________</span><br class=""><span class="">swift-evolution mailing list</span><br class=""><span class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a></span><br class=""><span class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></span><br class=""></div></blockquote></div></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">swift-evolution mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>