<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 2, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Erica Sadun <<a href="mailto:erica@ericasadun.com">erica@ericasadun.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 2, 2016, at 12:47 PM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">On Jun 2, 2016, at 1:30 PM, John McCall <<a href="mailto:rjmccall@apple.com" class="">rjmccall@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 2, 2016, at 11:22 AM, Matthew Johnson <<a href="mailto:matthew@anandabits.com" class="">matthew@anandabits.com</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">On Jun 2, 2016, at 12:01 PM, John McCall <<a href="mailto:rjmccall@apple.com" class="">rjmccall@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 2, 2016, at 8:48 AM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Xiaodi Wu <<a href="mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com" class="">xiaodi.wu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">We could have a primary initializer like this:</div><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">init(_ type: T.Type)</div><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">It would look better than a default initializer that requires the type to be passed as a generic argument. The fact that it is not labeled would make it clear that this is the primary initializer.</div><br style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I still think the value-based APIs are misleading and that it would be better to ask people to just use a type explicitly.</div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Sure. I don't necessarily disagree. But I think it's important to make clear that this is orthogonal to the struct vs free function discussion. That was the main point I was trying to make. :)</div><br style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Palatino-Roman; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">Adding the label will eliminate the potential for confusion about type vs metatype. Wanting to know the size of the metatype is probably extremely rare, but there is not reason to prohibit it.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I agree that the label makes the problem better.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">John.</div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I do want to say that while I'm including this in Alternatives Considered (and will update as soon as we finish lunch), that I stand by the freestanding functions as preferable to this clever but extremely indirect approach.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I believe the MemoryLayout type introduces a level of indirection that is less helpful in the rare times the user will consume this functionality, that it clutters calls and adds cognitive burden for reading code.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Let me give you some examples:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class="">let errnoSize = sizeof(errno.dynamicType)</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class="">return sizeof(UInt) * 8</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class="">sendBytes(from: &address, count: sizeof(UInt.self))</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class="">_class_getInstancePositiveExtentSize(bufferClass) == sizeof(_HeapObject.self)</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class="">bytesPerIndex: sizeof(IndexType))</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">In every example, calling a size function's clarity is simpler than using the Memory Layout approach:</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures;" class="">let errnoSize = MemoryLayout.init(t: errno).size</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures;" class="">return MemoryLayout<UInt>.size * 8</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures;" class="">sendBytes(from: &address, count: MemoryLayout<UInt>.size)</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures;" class="">_class_getInstancePositiveExtentSize(bufferClass) == MemoryLayout<_HeapObject.self>.size</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures;" class="">bytesPerIndex: MemoryLayout<IndexType>.size</span></div><div style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures;" class=""><br class=""></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">The full type specification lends the calls an importance and verbosity they don't deserve compared to their simpler counterparts. The eye is drawn every time to the "MemoryLayout<T>" pattern:</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">* Prominence of the type constructor</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">* Simplicity of the function call</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">* Number of code characters used</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">* Swift's adherence to a mantra of concision and clarity.</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">It fails all these. To put it in usability terms: it's a big stinking mess compared to the readability and eye tracking of the simpler function. (I've cc'ed in Chris Lattner, who has people who can test this kind of thing on call.)</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't disagree with the points you make. But one can argue that this is a good thing. It calls attention to code that requires extra attention and care. In some ways this is similar to 'UnsafeMutablePointer<T>' vs '*T'. Verbosity was a deliberate choice in that case.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class="">-- E</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Menlo;" class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class=""><br class=""></span></div></div></blockquote></body></html>