<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I notice now that the proposal does define how the change interacts with type declarations, in the grammar section. However, I still see that as an even worse change than in the function case.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jon Shier</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 14, 2016, at 1:05 AM, Jon Shier <<a href="mailto:jon@jonshier.com" class="">jon@jonshier.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">* What is your evaluation of the proposal?</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-1</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">No one has been able to explain how this change improves readability, it just seems like it’s supposed to be self evident. I would argue that it makes the generic definitions less readable by separating declarations and their relevant where clauses. At best this change just moves the already unreadable mass of text elsewhere, where it’s still unreadable. Furthermore, it trades this supposed readability of generic parameters for decreased readability of the actual function signature, since that signature’s now buried between the generic definitions and the where clauses. This is especially bad when declaring a single generic type that can easily fit on a single line, such as:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="Menlo" class="">func something<T: Decodable where T == T.DecodedType>(with something: T) -> String </font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">turns into this, which is less readable to me, as it hides important information between the generic information:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="Menlo" class="">func something<T: Decodable>(with something: T) -> String where T == T.DecodedType</font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Also, this proposal doesn’t explain how the definitions for generic types would change. Using the proposed grammar would be even worse on types. From:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="Menlo" class="">final class NetworkOperation<T: Decodable where T == T.DecodedType>: Operation,… {</font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">to:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="Menlo" class="">final class NetworkOperation<T: Decodable>: Operation,… where T == T.DecodedType {</font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The additional conformances types can have make this an especially bad use case for this proposal. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: pre; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">* Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It can be a problem, but I don’t see how this proposal fixes it. Appropriate code styling, whether manual or provided by an IDE, could provide much better readability than this proposal ever could.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: pre; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">* Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Changes proposed for “readability” need to be closely scrutinized, as one programmer’s readable and another’s Perl. I don’t think this proposal meets the high standard this list has tried to set for things to the language.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: pre; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">* If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Java and C++’s generics, which are rather different. And despite what they may have intended, I don’t think generics in either language are used as much as in Swift.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: pre; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">* How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?</span></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Read the proposal, the thread thus far, and considered my response.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jon</div><br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>