<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi David,<div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 7, 2016, at 3:03 AM, David Hart <<a href="mailto:david@hartbit.com" class="">david@hartbit.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">Hi Tony,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'm very positive about the proposal but I have similar fears, even if less strong, to David Waite. I agree that the core libraries can be improved with time, but it's going to be difficult to rethink them profoundly. NSKeyedArchiver was an improvement, but a fairly mild one, to stay backwards-compatible. It's going to be difficult to introduce major changes, like the ones David Waite gave as example, post Swift 3.</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But on a more pragmatic level, I know there is not much we can do about it, with the current deadlines. All we can hope for is make corelibs-foundation as Swifty as possible by the time Swift 3 comes out. And I imagine that third party libraries will come to replace the aspects of it that feel too alien to Swift.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Any thoughts?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I’m confident we can still introduce major changes if and when we need to. The value types stuff is a pretty major change, and we are able to find a way to introduce it in the 3rd major version of Swift instead of having to do it in the 1st. I see future improvements the same way. We may not even know right now what the most important improvement to Foundation is to make it fit in with Swift 4 or Swift 5. That is why I’m focusing on improving what we have so that we can iterate and improve alongside the language itself.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>- Tony</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">David (Hart).</div><div class=""><br class="">On 07 May 2016, at 00:06, Tony Parker via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class="">Hi David,<div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 6, 2016, at 2:56 PM, David Waite <<a href="mailto:david@alkaline-solutions.com" class="">david@alkaline-solutions.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">-1 On the group as-is. I do not believe all of these classes have the behavior that would be expected if ‘foundation’ were a from-scratch foundational library for Swift (as it exists on non Apple platforms). This will lock Swift into an evolutionary path for these types going forward.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is enough here that I will just pick one example to focus on - NSCoding/NSCoder, and elements I would suspect from such a from-scratch design</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- Coding would incorporate SecureCoding into its design (I did not see NSSecureCoding even on the list of protocols to get the prefix dropped)</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>SecureCoding should be on the list actually.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">- Archiver/Unarchiver would not exist; we would only have keyed versions</div><div class="">- Coder would be a split in half to Coder and Decoder</div><div class="">- Coder and Decoder would be protocols</div><div class="">- The Coder protocol might have a single method, encode(value:Coding, forKey:String)</div><div class="">- The Decoder protocol might single method, <T:Coding> decode(type:T.Type, forKey: String) -> T?</div><div class=""><div class="">- Compiler generation of a default Coding implementation</div><div class=""></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And possibly more such as:</div><div class="">- Add Coders limited to trees of objects vs graphs, to allow the Coder/Decoder protocols to be used for more intuitive JSON/XML representations</div><div class="">- Custom/specific assignment operator for Decoder to capture desired type without requiring said type to be specified in decode(type:forKey:) calls</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-DW</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There’s no question that we can improve Coding for Swift. I have actually explored this area quite a bit although I don’t have anything planned for Swift 3 at this time.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The general point is though, that we can do it by extending Foundation in that direction over time. In fact, keyed archiving is the perfect example of how we were able to do just that in the past in Objective-C. NSArchiver already existed and served a particular purpose, so we extended the concept into NSKeyedArchiver using the facilities available to us at the time.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s not a goal to rewrite Foundation from scratch in Swift. All Swift apps that are running out there today are in fact using a combination of Swift, Objective-C, C, C++, various flavors of assembly, and more. The goal is to present the existing API of Foundation in a way that fits in with the language today while allowing us to iteratively improve it over time.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- Tony</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 6, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Tony Parker via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Hi everyone,</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Thanks to all of you for your feedback on SE-0069 (Foundation Value Types). I’m back again with more information on another part of our plan to integrate Foundation API into Swift: dropping the NS prefix.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">When we originally proposed this as part of the API guidelines document (SE-0023,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0023-api-guidelines.md" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0023-api-guidelines.md</a><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">), we took a very broad approach to which classes would drop their prefix. This time, we’ve narrowed the scope considerably, plus taken advantage of the ability to nest types inside classes to further reduce the possibility of introducing conflicting names.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I’ve written up a draft of the proposal, which includes an extensive section on motivation plus a list of changes. Please take a look and let me know what you think. We’ll start a formal review period soon.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://github.com/parkera/swift-evolution/blob/parkera/drop_ns/proposals/NNNN-drop-foundation-ns.md" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://github.com/parkera/swift-evolution/blob/parkera/drop_ns/proposals/NNNN-drop-foundation-ns.md</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Thanks again for your help,</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">- Tony</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; 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