<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">All of punctuation, symbols, parentheses, operators, abbreviations, etc. have the same problem -- they don't cleanly verbalize, and you have to some work to do that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Should we get rid of all of that too? Should we try to make all of Swift "read naturally" as English-like sentences?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To me, that sounds absurd. You don't try to read code as if it was prose. It just makes no sense.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I don’t think we need to create a straw man idea of removing all punctation from Swift.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>You’re right, my apologies.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>What I tried to convey is: if there is (AFAICT) an agreement that trying to make code in general sound like English isn’t a very useful goal, perhaps the attempt to put ‘with’s etc in method names is more due to familiarity with how it was always done in Objective-C, rather than because it’s truly helpful in practice.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">And I don't see why we should have a double standard for method names. They're still words and easy to say out loud. You don't need to litter code with vacuous words like "with" to do that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This concept is naturally difficult to discuss over email since the point I am trying to make is about how you read these methods in person, but I’ll try.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Let’s take a method like:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-encodeWithCoder:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">then, translated into Swift by dropping the ‘with’:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">encode(coder:)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you say this out loud, you hear: “encode coder”. This sounds like you’re encoding the coder, which is not the case.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>That is a good example. When you read the code, there is no ambiguity as the Swift punctuation makes it clear you’re “encoding” not “encoding coder”, but indeed trying to say it out loud can be confusing.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I believe this is something of an edge case, though. In vast majority of cases (as far as I can see), removing “with”s makes verbalizing a method name a little less “nice”, but I don’t consider it a real problem, and would strongly side for readability / high S-to-N in the natural medium. But when the result is downright confusing — okay, I could see why this could be considered a problem.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">I think in this particular method, a fair argument could be made that ‘with’ was not the right word to use in the first place, and instead it could have been “into”. Then it would probably be imported as “encodeInto(coder:)”. This sounds much more fluent while at the same time providing a more correct indication of the behavior. This is a direction that we are still exploring based on some of the feedback from the community in these review threads about the guidelines.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>FWIW I’m not sure if “encode into coder”, verbalized, is an improvement in this respect. But I see what you’re going for.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s probable that this aspect of naming is more important to some people than to others. Personally, every day I talk to people using these method names. Often I get up on stages and talk about these methods to large groups of people. I believe that anything that helps me to say them out loud more naturally will assist in the listener’s ability to clearly understand my intent.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Definitely a great perspective to consider. I just wouldn’t want the clarity in code’s natural medium to suffer because it’s a bit harder to present and say out loud.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Best,</div><div>— Radek</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class="">- Tony</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">Sent from my iPad</div><div class=""><br class="">On 01 Feb 2016, at 09:19, Colin Cornaby <<a href="mailto:colin.cornaby@mac.com" class="">colin.cornaby@mac.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class="">I think being able to naturally talk about code is important. Code is not write only. It’s meant to be read, talked about out loud, and reasoned about with others. Certainly “with” (and “using”) can be trimmed out of a lot of API, but I’m not supportive of taken that to an extent where functions need to have words inserted back into them to be naturally read out loud. It only generates confusion if the method name as spoken is different than the method name as written.<div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 30, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Radosław Pietruszewski via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">It’s important to be able to talk about these methods in a natural way, and a natural way to say this sentence in English is to put that connecting word there.</div></blockquote></div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="">Why is this so important? You’re saying “this sentence”, but it’s not a sentence, and it’s not English. You can easily add the words “with” or “and” when trying to verbalize method names, but those words don't help at all in readability of code in its natural medium.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">One option we discussed was to put the connecting word into the label instead of the method name:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">foo(withOptions:)</div><div class="">description(withLocale:)</div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Having “options” and “locale” on the parameters side of the method call is great, but then if you make this effort, there’s no value in keeping “with”.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div class="">— Radek</div>
</div>
<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 29 Jan 2016, at 22:18, Tony Parker via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Jan 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Jordan Rose via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 28, 2016, at 14:15, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">I'm very used to "fooWithBar: baz" meaning either "get me the foo that<br class="">has a bar matching baz" or "create me a foo with its bar set to<br class="">baz".<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></blockquote><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">That's great, when that's what "with" means.</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">But I'm not sure this new convention is any worse, now that the base<br class="">name isn't assumed to include the first argument.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">The problem is that, I'm guessing at least 50% of the time, "with" is</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">just used as a vacuous connector to make the method name sound</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">grammatical, and "fooWithBar" doesn't actually mean the "foo" has-a</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">"bar." In these cases, it's actively misleading. I know that's not what</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">you were posting about, but I felt it had to be said :-/</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">I actually don't think this is true when "foo" is a noun (and searching through the selector dump Doug made a long time ago seems to back that up).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Exceptions:</div><div class="">- "fooWithOptions", but that's already caught by the default parameter rule.</div><div class="">- "fooWithLocale", which uses the locale to build the result.</div><div class="">- "commonPrefixWithString", where the "with" isn't<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">quite</i> vacuous.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But when "foo" is a verb (or when it's a later parameter that's just "withBar") it does seem pretty vacuous.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jordan</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">It’s important to be able to talk about these methods in a natural way, and a natural way to say this sentence in English is to put that connecting word there.</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">One option we discussed was to put the connecting word into the label instead of the method name:</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">foo(withOptions:)</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">description(withLocale:)</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">etc.</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">- Tony</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; 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