<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Hello all,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’m overwhelmingly *for* this proposal. I think removing needless verbosity and keeping the signal-to-noise ratio high is one of the most immediately appealing aspects of Swift, as well as a great general improvement to the programming experience.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And so unswiftified (yes, it’s a word now) APIs from Objective-C stick out like a sore thumb. Not only are they harder to read and write, they visually overwhelm the less verbose, information-dense Swift-first code.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Just like previous 1.0—2.0 attempts at bridging the gap (with NSError params being translated to Swift errors, factory methods translated to initializers, etc.), automating this will be an error-prone process, and almost bound to be a bit annoying at first, before all the glitches and poor translations are smoothed out. And yet I feel like just like the previous automated translations were overwhelmingly a great thing, so will the result of this proposal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">* * *</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""> Add First Argument Labels</div><div class=""> </div><div class=""> - func enumerateObjectsWith(_: NSEnumerationOptions = [], using: (AnyObject, UnsafeMutablePointer) -> Void)</div><div class=""> + func enumerateObjects(options _: NSEnumerationOptions = [], using: (AnyObject, UnsafeMutablePointer) -> Void)</div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Good! The Guidelines recommend an explicit first parameter label for arguments with a default value, but this is a good change also for another reason, a use case not included in the Guidelines (I have more to say about this in the SE-0023 thread):</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“Options” is the description of the parameter, not the method itself. Even if (for whatever reason!) `options` didn’t have a default value and the word “Options” wasn’t omitted in the translation,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> enumerateObjects(options: …)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">would be clearer than</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> enumerateObjectsWithOptions(…)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s not even about the extra word, about the four useless characters, it’s simply that “WithOptions” doesn’t describe the operation at all. It’s a word that conveys no information (“with”), and “options”, which describes the first parameter. In Objective-C, there’s no such thing as parameter labels, it’s all one name, so “With” is used as a separator. But in Swift, making the first parameter’s label explicit just makes more sense.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And with that in mind, I object to these translations:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""> func fillWith(_: CGBlendMode, alpha: CGFloat)</div><div class=""> func strokeWith(_: CGBlendMode, alpha: CGFloat)</div><div class=""> func encodeWith(_: Coder)</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Even though these don’t have default values, I believe this version to be clearer and make more sense, even if slightly more verbose:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> func fill(blendMode: CGBlendMode, alpha: CGFloat)</div><div class=""> func stroke(blendMode: CGBlendMode, alpha: CGFloat)</div><div class=""> func encode(coder: Coder)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Again, the method, the action itself (“fill”, “stroke”, “encode”) doesn’t naturally describe the first parameter in a way “insert” on a collection, or “addObserver” would. The blend mode and coder values here are merely _options_ of the method, not its _fundamental job_.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">One way to conceptualize the difference is to think of arguments as being either “inputs” or “options”. A passed element to be inserted to a collection is an input, but blend mode is only an option of a fill, an operation that conceptually takes no inputs.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(I also don’t believe that “don’t repeat type information” rule applies here. “blend mode” is a description of the parameter, not only its type. Same with coder. We’re not needlessly repeating type information here, we’re describing option parameters, which happen to be the same as type names.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">* * *</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>• How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’ve read the whole proposal, as well as the related proposals, and read the thread for this review.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>• If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Not other languages as far as I remember, but Swift has a precedent for similar-ish automatic translations of ObjC APIs and they were, on the whole, good.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>• Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?</div><div class="">> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>• Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Yes, and oh gosh yes.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class="">
<div class="">— Radek</div>
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 22 Jan 2016, at 22:02, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Hello Swift community,</p><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">The review of SE-0005"Better Translation of Objective-C APIs Into Swift" begins now and runs through January 31, 2016. The proposal is available here:</p><blockquote style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 16px; padding: 0px 15px; border-left-width: 4px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font color="#777777" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Segoe UI, Arial, freesans, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol" size="3" class=""><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0005-objective-c-name-translation.md" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0005-objective-c-name-translation.md</a></font></div></blockquote><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at</p><blockquote style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 16px; padding: 0px 15px; color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-left-width: 4px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(64, 120, 192); text-decoration: none;" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></div></blockquote><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager. When replying, please try to keep the proposal link at the top of the message:</p><blockquote style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 16px; padding: 0px 15px; border-left-width: 4px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><p style="color: rgb(119, 119, 119); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px;" class="">Proposal link:</p><blockquote style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 16px; padding: 0px 15px; border-left-width: 4px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(221, 221, 221);" class=""><div style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font color="#777777" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Segoe UI, Arial, freesans, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol" size="3" class=""><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0005-objective-c-name-translation.md" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0005-objective-c-name-translation.md</a></font></div></blockquote><p style="color: rgb(119, 119, 119); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px;" class="">Reply text</p><blockquote style="color: rgb(119, 119, 119); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 15px; border-left-width: 4px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(221, 221, 221);" class=""><div style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Other replies</div></blockquote></blockquote><h5 style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.4; font-size: 1em; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><a id="user-content-what-goes-into-a-review-1" class="anchor" href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution#what-goes-into-a-review-1" aria-hidden="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(64, 120, 192); text-decoration: none; display: inline-block; padding-right: 2px; margin-left: -18px; line-height: 1.1;"><span aria-hidden="true" class="octicon octicon-link" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: normal; font-size: 16px; line-height: 1; font-family: octicons; display: inline-block; text-rendering: auto; -webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; -webkit-user-select: none; vertical-align: middle; visibility: hidden;"></span></a>What goes into a review?</h5><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your review:</p><ul style="box-sizing: border-box; padding: 0px 0px 0px 2em; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">What is your evaluation of the proposal?</li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?</li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?</li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">If you have used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?</li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?</li></ul><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">More information about the Swift evolution process is available at</p><blockquote style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 16px; padding: 0px 15px; color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-left-width: 4px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(64, 120, 192); text-decoration: none;" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a></div></blockquote><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Thank you,</p><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">-Doug Gregor</p><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, 'Segoe UI', Arial, freesans, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol'; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Review Manager</p></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>