<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div></div><div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>Type narrowing would also fit nicely with union types (as demonstrated in Ceylon).</div><div><br></div><div>-Thorsten </div><div><br>Am 05.01.2016 um 23:37 schrieb Dennis Lysenko <<a href="mailto:dennis.s.lysenko@gmail.com">dennis.s.lysenko@gmail.com</a>>:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">That said, I am in favor of automatic type narrowing. As long as it doesn't complicate the compiler considerably (if it does, there's little reason to replace optional binding), it's no less confusing than shadowing was when I first saw it, and once you get used to it (shouldn't be more than a day): it is less verbose and perhaps more intuitive (I've found myself reacting to optionals saying "duh, I've already guarded that X is nonnull on this codepath, why would I have to unwrap it again?" in Swift).</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 5:35 PM Dennis Lysenko <<a href="mailto:dennis.s.lysenko@gmail.com">dennis.s.lysenko@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Thorsten,<div><br></div><div>Not that I disapprove (Kotlin does the same and it's great), the precedent seems to have already been set in people's minds that there won't be any kind of implicit type narrowing and I predict a fair few will respond with "You can already do that with optional binding, and I'm uncomfortable seeing a variable change type in an inner scope" even though shadowing achieves exactly the same aim. The same happened the last time that type narrowing was mentioned.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 5:27 PM Thorsten Seitz via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Ceylon has type narrowing (not only for optional unwrapping but for type checks as well): <a href="http://ceylon-lang.org/documentation/1.2/tour/types/#narrowing_the_type_of_an_object_reference" target="_blank">http://ceylon-lang.org/documentation/1.2/tour/types/#narrowing_the_type_of_an_object_reference</a><div><br></div><div>It always struck me as quite natural to do this.</div><div><div><br></div><div>-Thorsten</div></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Am 02.01.2016 um 06:08 schrieb Tyler Fleming Cloutier via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>:</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>Whoops, errant button tap.</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">I've always thought that, </span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">if let foo = foo? {</span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">}</span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">makes more sense than </span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">if let foo = foo {</span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">}</span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">as the ? indicates that you are unwrapping the optional and then assigning it to the new variable.</span></font></div></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">The current syntax must seem incomprehensible/redundant to those new to Swift. This obviously doesn't help with the verbosity at all, but it seems to be more consistent with ? being the operator for unwrapping.</span></font></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Of course there is also the current optional pattern matching syntax:</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">if case let foo? = foo {</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">}</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">This accomplishes the same thing and is somewhat less perplexing than "if let foo = foo", but must still be baffling to a new user.</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">You could even have:</span></font></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><font><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">if foo? {</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> foo.blah()</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">}</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Which would not create a shadow local variable but would have the same semantics as</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">foo?.blah()</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">in that is just providing conditional access to the variable if it's not .None. Not sure if this direct access is desired as it is still magical scoped type manipulation without declaring a new variable.</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Tyler</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 1, 2016, at 11:44 PM, Tyler Cloutier <<a href="mailto:cloutiertyler@aol.com" target="_blank">cloutiertyler@aol.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto"><div></div><div>I've always thought that, </div><div><br></div><div>if let foo = foo? {</div><div><br></div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>makes more sense than </div><div><br></div><div>if let foo = foo {</div><div><br></div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>as the ? indicates that you are unwrapping the optional and then assigning it to the new variable</div><div><br>On Dec 19, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>I’ve only read the last couple of posts but has anybody already suggested using something like this:</div><div><br></div><div>if let foo! {</div><div> // code that uses foo</div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>People already know that the ! is unwrapping a value and that let is defining a new constant. So why not combine those two?</div><div>Alternatively it could also be:</div><div><br></div><div>if let foo? {</div><div> // code that uses foo</div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>What do you think?</div><div><br></div><div>– Cihat</div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Am 19.12.2015 um 23:43 schrieb Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>>:</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite"><div><br>On Dec 19, 2015, at 2:15 PM, Radosław Pietruszewski via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">I was going to suggest something similar (a hard naming problem also):</div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">if has foo {</div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> // foo is now unwrapped and non-optional</div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">}</div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">guard has foo else { return }</div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Does the same thing as `let foo = foo` in practice, but places it in a somewhat different mental model. Instead of unwrapping and immediately assigning to a new constant with the same name (which just looks kind of silly, like some magic voodoo ritual), it sort of asserts that we “have” foo (i.e. it’s not nil), and therefore from that point it can just be treated as non-optional.</div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">IMHO this, although introduces a new keyword, makes more sense than trying to reuse “let” in a context where it seems nonsensical. Perhaps this would be closer to Swift’s goals, by reducing very common boilerplate, but without harming clarity in a way adding a new meaning to “let” would.</div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Curious to hear Chris Lattner’s opinion :-) </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>IANACL (I am not a Chris Lattner) but, FWIW, several of us are uncomfortable with the idea that a single declared property might have different static types in different regions of code.</div></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>— Radek</div></div><br style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="font-family:AvenirNext-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 19 Dec 2015, at 21:31, Dennis Lysenko via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><p dir="ltr">What if we made the keyword "unwrap"?<span> </span></p><p dir="ltr">if unwrap someViewController {<br>// now there is a shadowing nonoptional (unwrapped) variable of the same name only within this scope, boiling down to simple syntactic sugar for optional binding and it is fairly clear.<span> </span><br>}<span> </span></p><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 1:31 PM Kevin Wooten via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>As much fun as it to example with foo, I would argue the opposite when you use some real world variable names:</div><div><br></div><div>if let someInterestingViewConroller =<span> </span><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">someInterestingViewConroller {</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">}</span></div><div><br></div><div>vs</div><div><br></div><div>If let <span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">someInterestingViewConroller {</span></div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>We know what let does and it should be enough to impart the necessary information for this statement.</div><div><br></div><div>When it comes to newcomers I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who'd be able to understand either form without teaching; so not losing much there.<br><br></div></div><div dir="auto"><div><br>On Dec 19, 2015, at 10:01 AM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 11, 2015, at 8:19 AM, Jeff Kelley via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="word-wrap:break-word">I’ve had similar ideas to this. Instead of ditching the<span> </span><font face="Menlo">if let</font><span> </span>syntax altogether, another approach would be to use the existing name if no new name is given, so that this code:<div><br></div><div><font face="Menlo"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>if let foo = foo { /* use foo */ }</font></div><div><br></div><div>could become this code:</div><div><br></div><div><font face="Menlo"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>if let foo { /* use foo */ }</font></div><div><br></div><div>In both cases,<span> </span><font face="Menlo">foo</font><span> </span>is non-optional inside the braces. If you gave it another name with the<span> </span><font face="Menlo">if let</font><span> </span>syntax, that would work as it does today.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>Hi Jeff,</div><div><br></div><div>This is commonly requested - the problem is that while it does help reduce boilerplate, it runs counter to the goal of improving clarity.</div><div><br></div><div>-Chris</div><br><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=1Ry8ov4zuU66O51YNcjYWXuMGf2gObG8uPwoJz-2B4Z1VqMdeyeesw-2Bc9SDkZTEmLmnofSO3tNgiMGF47sxE879Ut5x-2F6sLSrTgmZhXJOq-2B59bEaSmJ0a44hp5limyi-2FpsrcKvySjRuPP0gLr6FoeZNJoisevK-2BimrVdnhvmWcLj69rx67MHqizgTcdJrprVSbV2f-2FkGqilX9aSsmL60yEZg-3D-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" style="min-height:1px!important;width:1px!important;border-width:0px!important;margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important"></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>swift-evolution mailing 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