<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 6, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Meta: most reviews have the review dates in the Status field of their document, this one doesn't. I was a little confused at first.<br class=""><br class="">For the proposal itself:<br class=""><br class=""># What is your evaluation of the proposal?<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">+1</div><div class=""><br class=""># Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Yes, I write a lot of code just to initialize code. This will probably make some of that code clearer.</div><div class=""><br class=""># Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Probably?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""># If you have you used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I frequently write C++ and Python and neither of them have it. This is especially annoying for short programs.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""># C# has an initializer syntax that allows you to assign properties at creation time, and it is handy:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Foo foo = new Foo() {</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Bar = "bar",</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Baz = 1,</div><div class="">};</div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">However, this pattern wouldn't be of much help in Swift, where most types don't have a reasonable default value.</div><div class=""><br class=""># How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I followed the first week and a half of the proposal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">With all this said, I am confused with the way the proposal is written. The Proposed Solution section talks about opt-in memberwise initialization with the memberwise modifier on properties, but it is listed as a future direction and the Detailed Design makes no mention of it. I would like to be clear that my current appreciation of the proposal only extends to the Detailed Design, and not necessarily to the future directions.<br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Felix, I apologize if this was confusing. The decision of the “automatic” vs “opt-in” model for property eligibility is one that I feel is very important. That is why I mentioned the tradeoff in the Proposed Solution section. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>The opt-in model is not part of the current proposal. The Detailed Design describes exactly how the current proposal will work. I appreciate your support of that!</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The future enhancements are included to give an idea of some directions in which memberwise initialization could evolve. I feel strongly about two aspects of these enhancements:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>1. We need a way to specify a default value for memberwise parameters for `let` properties.</div><div>2. It would be really nice to have a little bit more control over which properties participate in memberwise initialization when the “automatic” rules don’t quite do the right thing for a particular use case.</div><div><br class=""></div>Matthew</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">Félix<br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Le 6 janv. 2016 à 19:04:41, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> a écrit :<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">On Jan 6, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hello Swift community,<br class=""><br class="">The review of "Flexible Memberwise Initialization" begins now and runs through January 10th. The proposal is available here:<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0018-flexible-memberwise-" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0018-flexible-memberwise-</a>initialization.md<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""><br class="">or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager.<br class=""><br class="">What goes into a review?<br class=""><br class="">The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your review:<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>* What is your evaluation of the proposal?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">It’s okay.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>* Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I’m lukewarm about that. I have never found writing out the initializers I want to be a significant burden, and I find my code is better when they’re explicit. Every new feature increases the language's complexity and surface area, and I fear this one is not going to pay its way.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>* Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Yes, but I worry that it may be too early to add it. Other features in this space, like truly generic variadics, may well obsolete anything we do today. I’m not sure we should be designing convenience features that are likely to overlap with more general features coming down the road unless the inconvenience is very painful… which I personally don’t find it to be.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>* If you have you used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">The proposal is more elegant than how you’d do this in Python, but on the other hand the mechanisms you’d use in Python are not single-purpose language features directed at memberwise initialization; they definitely pay their way because they can be used for much more.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>* How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">A glance, admittedly.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">More information about the Swift evolution process is available at<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a><br class=""><br class="">Thank you,<br class=""><br class="">-Chris<br class="">Review Manager<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">-Dave<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></div>
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