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<body><div>I'd like to +1 the proposal.<br></div>
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<div>I think the reasoning is very sound in terms of the readability of code. In particular in code reviewing, reading code that I haven't looked at for a while or that I'm otherwise unfamiliar with; the lack of a self identifier on properties means that I'm continually checking back in the code (often requiring scrolling) to be sure that I'm looking at a property or local var. That continual eye skipping back is a serious impediment to fluent reading of code that this proposal would go some way to improving.<br></div>
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<div>The arguments in favour of removing self that claim to make code more readable (I think) centre on the idea that there are fewer characters on the line - which is a fair point - it makes direct reading easier but I think overall increases ambiguity in the mind of the reader (particularly where the reader is not the original writer of the code). Typically, if you are a single developer that would make this counter claim stronger. If you are working as part of a team, doing code reviews and picking up unfamiliar code, unambiguous reading is more valuable. I'm coming at this from the point of view of working as part of a team and that gives more strength to the proposal.<br></div>
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<div>Regards<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bill.</div>
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<div>On Wed, Dec 16, 2015, at 08:02 PM, Vinicius Vendramini via swift-evolution wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div>Same here: not much to add, but also a -1 on this proposal.<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div>I would, however, like to bring up the obvious comparison between swift and objective-c. Swift is much more readable for a series of reasons, and the fact that ‘self’ isn’t mandatory is doubtlessly one of them.<br></div>
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<div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 16, 2015, at 2:52 PM, Marco Masser via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div><div><span class="font" style="font-family:UICTFontTextStyleTallBody"><span class="size" style="font-size:17px">I don't have anything to add to Michael's answer but want to add my voice to this side of the argument. I'd answer ever question as he did.</span></span><br></div>
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<div><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="size" style="font-size:12px">On Wednesday, December 16, 2015, Michael Wells via swift-evolution <</span></span><a style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:auto;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:auto;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;" href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="size" style="font-size:12px">> wrote:</span></span><br></div>
<blockquote style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:auto;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:auto;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div>* What is your evaluation of the proposal?<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div>-1<br></div>
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<div>I’m not in favor of the changes. After adopting the current Swift style of omitting self when possible, I find my code is much more readable. I certainly understand and respect the reasoning behind the proposal, but I am not convinced that the changes are worth the cost. <br></div>
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<div>* Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?<br></div>
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<div>I don’t think so. This seems like something best addressed with a code style or formatting tool. Nothing prohibits you from requiring the use of self in your own code. <br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"><span style="white-space:normal;"><br></span></span>* Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do like that it would lead to consistent code: you always use self to access instance members. On the other had, the visual weight of it seems to outbalance any gain.<br></div>
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<div>* If you have you used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div><div>I’ve always preferred the style that Swift has adopted and will continue to use that if at all possible.<br></div>
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<div>* How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?<br></div>
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<div>I’ve been keeping up with the thread, but I didn’t do any in-depth study or anything. <br></div>
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<div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a>swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div>
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<div><div><span class="font" style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular"><span class="size" style="font-size:14px">All of the prior swift-evolution commentary on this proposal (which is nearing the 100-message mark) will also be considered, of course!</span></span><br></div>
<div style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;"> </div>
<div style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;"><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>- Doug<br></div>
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<div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a>swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br></div>
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<div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div>Hello Swift community,<br></div>
<div><div> </div>
<div>The review of “Require self for accessing instance members” begins now and runs through Sunday, December 20th. The proposal is available here:<br></div>
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<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0009-require-self-for-accessing-instance-members.md">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0009-require-self-for-accessing-instance-members.md</a><br></div>
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<div><div>Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br></div>
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<div>or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager.<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div>What goes into a review?<br></div>
<div><div> </div>
<div>The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your review:<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>* What is your evaluation of the proposal?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>* Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>* Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>* If you have you used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>* How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?<br></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>More information about the Swift evolution process is available at<br></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a><br></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>Cheers,<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>Doug Gregor<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>Review Manager<br></div>
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