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<body><div>I'd like to +1 the proposal.<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I think the reasoning is very sound in terms of the readability of code. In particular in code reviewing, reading code that I haven't looked at for a while or that I'm otherwise unfamiliar with; the lack of a self identifier on properties means that I'm continually checking back in the code (often requiring scrolling) to be sure that I'm looking at a property or local var. That continual eye skipping back is a serious impediment to fluent reading of code that this proposal would go some way to improving.<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The arguments in favour of removing self that claim to make code more readable (I think) centre on the idea that there are fewer characters on the line - which is a fair point - it makes direct reading easier but I think overall increases ambiguity in the mind of the reader (particularly where the reader is not the original writer of the code). Typically, if you are a single developer that would make this counter claim stronger. If you are working as part of a team, doing code reviews and picking up unfamiliar code, unambiguous reading is more valuable. I'm coming at this from the point of view of working as part of a team and that gives more strength to the proposal.<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Bill.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>On Wed, Dec 16, 2015, at 08:02 PM, Vinicius Vendramini via swift-evolution wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div>Same here: not much to add, but also a -1 on this proposal.<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I would, however, like to bring up the obvious comparison between swift and objective-c. Swift is much more readable for a series of reasons, and the fact that ‘self’ isn’t mandatory is doubtlessly one of them.<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 16, 2015, at 2:52 PM, Marco Masser via swift-evolution &lt;<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div><span class="font" style="font-family:UICTFontTextStyleTallBody"><span class="size" style="font-size:17px">I don't have anything to add to Michael's answer but want to add my voice to this side of the argument. I'd answer ever question as he did.</span></span><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="size" style="font-size:12px">On Wednesday, December 16, 2015, Michael Wells via swift-evolution &lt;</span></span><a style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:auto;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:auto;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;" href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="size" style="font-size:12px">&gt; wrote:</span></span><br></div>
<blockquote style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:auto;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:auto;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div>* What is your evaluation of the proposal?<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>-1<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I’m not in favor of the changes. After adopting the current Swift style of omitting self when possible, I find my code is much more readable. I certainly understand and respect the reasoning behind the proposal, but I am not convinced that the changes are worth the cost.&nbsp;<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>* Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I don’t think so. This seems like something best addressed with a code style or formatting tool. Nothing prohibits you from requiring the use of self in your own code.&nbsp;<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"><span style="white-space:normal;"><br></span></span>* Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I do like that it would lead to consistent code: you always use self to access instance members. On the other had, the visual weight of it seems to outbalance any gain.<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>* If you have you used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal&nbsp;compares to those?<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div>I’ve always preferred the style that Swift has adopted and will continue to use that if at all possible.<br></div>
</div>
<div>* How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I’ve been keeping up with the thread, but I didn’t do any in-depth study or anything.&nbsp;<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution &lt;<a>swift-evolution@swift.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div><span class="font" style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular"><span class="size" style="font-size:14px">All of the prior swift-evolution commentary on this proposal (which is nearing the 100-message mark) will also be considered, of course!</span></span><br></div>
<div style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;">&nbsp;</div>
<div style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;"><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>- Doug<br></div>
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution &lt;<a>swift-evolution@swift.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div>Hello Swift community,<br></div>
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The review of “Require self for accessing instance members” begins now and runs through Sunday, December 20th. The proposal is available here:<br></div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0009-require-self-for-accessing-instance-members.md">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0009-require-self-for-accessing-instance-members.md</a><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div>Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager.<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>What goes into a review?<br></div>
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through&nbsp;constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When&nbsp;writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your&nbsp;review:<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>*&nbsp;What is your evaluation of the proposal?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>*&nbsp;Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to&nbsp;Swift?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>*&nbsp;Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>*&nbsp;If you have you used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do&nbsp;you feel that this proposal compares to those?<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>*&nbsp;How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or&nbsp;an in-depth study?<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>More information about the Swift evolution process is available at<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>Cheers,<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>Doug Gregor<br></div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"></span>Review Manager<br></div>
</div>
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<div>_______________________________________________<br></div>
<div>swift-evolution mailing list<br></div>
<div><a>swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br></div>
<div><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><img style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;min-height:1px !important;width:1px !important;border-top-width:0px !important;border-right-width:0px !important;border-bottom-width:0px !important;border-left-width:0px !important;margin-top:0px !important;margin-right:0px !important;margin-bottom:0px !important;margin-left:0px !important;padding-top:0px !important;padding-right:0px !important;padding-bottom:0px !important;padding-left:0px !important;" border="0" height="1" width="1" alt="" src="https://www.fastmailusercontent.com/proxy/37bcb52d46057f81a586c4cce08ed1817a1398ebf1b5aa6e944943d3723ac416/8647470737a3f2f25723030323431303e23647e23756e64676279646e2e65647f27766f2f60756e6f35707e6d3844457d22324f4e423755736b6e465a4235513373314c6744715a7876693355646d22324464566174754767703034603a5742467b44607a6948754478555a6a7851545667453a59417236453667444b653f685f4633595a65615c63366b46633034566d6855424a7a417258764d405d22364f6a776e645966365c6677717d4140713a4a4e456d22324d6e4a575a5b62354d6358473034525f487d46786071757454517453633c41436477375a475b6a495a763a705a5450386876375542563576413467707d49353d22324c6734633c6336314155363c4969565235533d686a4051345d4d22324256515077334a447957793d22364773587b6d23344/open"><span class="font" style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular"><span class="size" style="font-size:14px"><span></span></span></span><span class="font" style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular"><span class="size" style="font-size:14px">_______________________________________________</span></span><br></div>
<div><span class="font" style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular"><span class="size" style="font-size:14px">swift-evolution mailing list</span></span><br></div>
<div><a style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br></div>
<div><a style="font-family:SanFranciscoText-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;" href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br></div>
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</blockquote></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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</blockquote><div><img style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:auto;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:auto;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;height:1px !important;width:1px !important;border-top-width:0px !important;border-right-width:0px !important;border-bottom-width:0px !important;border-left-width:0px !important;margin-top:0px !important;margin-right:0px !important;margin-bottom:0px !important;margin-left:0px !important;padding-top:0px !important;padding-right:0px !important;padding-bottom:0px !important;padding-left:0px !important;" border="0" height="1" width="1" alt="" src="https://www.fastmailusercontent.com/proxy/f95047cd3b9b883ffd949cc0e7901d23100af7c62646c4a2dee5b950bd4da7bd/8647470737a3f2f25723030323431303e23647e23756e64676279646e2e65647f27766f2f60756e6f35707e6d3c464773557a69364d467830753c68425b67383a407f645746345461705f42663a58597e467339594343397836494534425c646163686147365c41543b62775c48614075457a563842603a54537366345a7a66417051393d665e4d223242425379743c494e6a435935546551435341565769697859766a686233676b684a4f6d43513565323731764e6f6d66653377727632577d60573579377c484a436661567a5d22364678457434305969586960393773557e4470353876477861323a74665f666145334a43617d223645683d67674853453344637d6a4e6e6773615d61793e64725a486673365e4d626871586a493d4d23344/open"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="size" style="font-size:12px"><span></span>_______________________________________________</span></span><br></div>
<div><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="size" style="font-size:12px">swift-evolution mailing list</span></span><br></div>
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<div><a style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:auto;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:auto;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;" href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div> <img style="height:1px !important;width:1px !important;border-top-width:0px !important;border-right-width:0px !important;border-bottom-width:0px !important;border-left-width:0px !important;margin-top:0px !important;margin-bottom:0px !important;margin-right:0px !important;margin-left:0px !important;padding-top:0px !important;padding-bottom:0px !important;padding-right:0px !important;padding-left:0px !important;" border="0" height="1" width="1" alt="" src="https://www.fastmailusercontent.com/proxy/36fc492472e56c526bd799697858717f183411fec5b83bae85b40b74946beba4/8647470737a3f2f25723030323431303e23647e23756e64676279646e2e65647f27766f2f60756e6f35707e6d376342527663573732517a624b483648557a7158735a696e615c4f4a7b61597e6d22324b4672753d22364d2236436c445b437f65615a77764d22364731794e61377874494c67436a72755a6b43564d22364354395b696d22324d2236445d2232487076327a78595a46743c425368563d22324137756a66657e6549513c6b6168765a5c68784863536a5957526835356947425c4477347439696131387e686a714643567f4a5548513a7636596d22364130373678597b6051736b457d4d4831324777403b623b454b686a69567d22364f674d437d6d2236403f45354571574a445b4671535734525d22364a6248583a61474857603d47465c673b47397361744a556466486f6d23344/open"><br></div>
<div><u>_______________________________________________</u><br></div>
<div>swift-evolution mailing list<br></div>
<div><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br></div>
<div><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br></div>
</blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div>
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