<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Nick,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As author of the proposal, the community responses reflected the general feedback that existed at the point I created the proposal. I wasn’t sure if the subsequent feedback should better stay in the mailing list or be summarised back in the proposal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If someone from Apple can confirm what should be done, I wouldn’t mind updating the proposal to better reflect the 50/50 split and arguments of this monstrous thread :)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">David.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 16 Dec 2015, at 21:13, Nick Shelley via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Also, the "community responses" section only lists the positive community responses, when the actual community discussion seemed to be more of an even split (if not more people opposed). That's just more evidence that at least this particular proposal is blatantly and purposefully one-sided in its representation of the community's input.</div><div class="gmail_extra" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Nick Shelley<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:nickmshelley@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">nickmshelley@gmail.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="ltr" class=""><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><span style="font-size: 12.8px;" class="">All of the prior swift-evolution commentary on this proposal (which is nearing the 100-message mark) will also be considered, of course!</span></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></span><div class="">It is my opinion that the proposal should encapsulate as much of that discussion as possible so every reviewer doesn't have to read every comment in that thread. The current proposal is wildly one-sided and seems to only reflect the opinion of its author and those who agree with the proposal. I created a Pull Request (<a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/pull/59" target="_blank" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/pull/59</a>, still not merged and no comments as to why) to more fairly represent the single counter-argument pointed out in the proposal, but others in the mailing list expressed concern that none of the other downsides of the proposal are represented at all.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Is my (and others') desire to have the proposal contain an accurate representation of the main points of the community discussion off base? Is the main purpose of the proposal to be a sales pitch for an idea, even if it includes building up and tearing down straw-man versions of the arguments brought forth by the opposition? I'm asking with sincere curiosity because I can't seem to find a good description of the purpose of the proposal in my research of how the evolution process works.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks in advance for clarifying these points for me.</div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;" class="">All of the prior swift-evolution commentary on this proposal (which is nearing the 100-message mark) will also be considered, of course!<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>- Doug<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word;" class="">Hello Swift community,<div class=""><br class=""><div class="">The review of “Require self for accessing instance members” begins now and runs through Sunday, December 20th. The proposal is available here:</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0009-require-self-for-accessing-instance-members.md" target="_blank" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0009-require-self-for-accessing-instance-members.md</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be sent to the swift-evolution mailing list at</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">What goes into a review?</div><div class=""><br class="">The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your review:<br class=""><br class=""><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>* What is your evaluation of the proposal?<br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>* Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift?<br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>* Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift?<br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>* If you have you used other languages or libraries with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those?<br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>* How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study?<br class=""></div><br class=""></div><div class="">More information about the Swift evolution process is available at</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md" target="_blank" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>Cheers,</div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>Doug Gregor</div><div class=""><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""> </span>Review Manager</div></div><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=XbU4wxnU83GyR7TGhOdBtBOchMF7PYvaYPXWDKda2ffqX-2BT18BxAwYLO-2BpcXBRy5XplLrZqRUgm2BTqTYbF-2FCRM0sp6as2nRXCfOll-2BwWZl1e3uzq-2FA7SZ2AlxwHWsBP82ja8YjdgkPtsOLlkWfXRCkIvATzzCE6vfTL2j8n0ywCQu7leMBb3iCJJNCl6vqlM-2BLvplDbi2Z-2BA6jxEdbrj-2B0KHLY0d-2FINL-2BM-2B2BpszbM-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" style="min-height: 1px !important; 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