<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 11, 2015, at 12:08 AM, Fabian Ehrentraud <<a href="mailto:Fabian.Ehrentraud@willhaben.at" class="">Fabian.Ehrentraud@willhaben.at</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br class="">On 10.12.2015, at 23:28, Douglas Gregor <<a href="mailto:dgregor@apple.com" class="">dgregor@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Dec 10, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Fabian Ehrentraud <<a href="mailto:Fabian.Ehrentraud@willhaben.at" class="">Fabian.Ehrentraud@willhaben.at</a>> wrote:<br class=""></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote type="cite" class="">Most of the implicitly unwrapped optionals we currently get from (Objective-)C APIs can, in fact, never be nil. Forcing programmers to deal with all of these values as full optionals leads to a ton of optional-related boilerplate that doesn’t actual help users write better code. Rather, it dilutes the effectiveness of optionals as a language feature: optionals should mean “nil matters here, think about it carefully!”. But if some large number of optionals people deal with on a day-to-day basis are instead “the compiler didn’t know, so you have to write !”, the useful meaning of the “true” optionals gets lost in the noise.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I think exactly the opposite. If an API has not yet been audited, the client needs to consult the documentation if a return value can ever be nil. If not, she might explicitly and knowingly unwrap the value safely or non-safely. I deem this a good thing, as it prevents unknowingly unsafe use. I do not think that it would get in the way, as the syntactic sugar for Optionals is quite minimal. Also when the API gets audited for nullability later on, the compiler will hint which optional unwrappings have been rendered unnecessary.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">You’re discounting my main argument, which is that the safety provided by optionals is contingent on the nil case being interesting most of the time. That’s generally true in “pure” Swift code—Swift programmers use optionals when nil matters—and it’s generally true in imported (Objective-)C code that has been audited, but your change would create a lot of optionals where “nil” isn’t actually interesting in practice.</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Have I understood it right that your argument is that defaulting to Optionals would would make them loose their meaning and result in programmers just use ! too often, also in cases where the nil case should properly be handled? I see the point. And I'm thankful for this constructive discussion.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Nonetheless I think that Swift preventing unintentional mistakes would be something to strive for. Have you got alternative ideas on how to deal with the issue this proposal tries to address?</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I honestly don’t have alternative ideas here—implicitly unwrapped optionals is the best solution that we could find to balance the goals of making it easy to write correct code vs. not pushing too much boilerplate on users, and while I want to continue to make them less common in Swift, I don’t think changing the Clang importer is the right answer.</div><br class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- Doug</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></body></html>