<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Just a comment here…<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tl;dr<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It is unfortunate that people are not able/willing to read the clear goals of the project as outlined by its leadership and follow suite. This is the third or forth such request I’ve seen in a short period that has been proposed of which the only goal was to reduce typing by a few characters; which has been shown is not a goal of Swift.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It seems everybody is eager to propose “something” but these type of proposals seems to be generating a bit of chatter, on a list that is very active. As outsiders I think we really need to respect the goals and the demands a list like this puts on the leaderships time. We don’t want to disengage them with an overwhelming list of requests that are not really viable.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">P.S. Yes I get the irony that I just created more “chatter” just thought somebody should point this out. Also, I would like to verify that I have no affiliation with the project, Apple or otherwise. Jut a concerned citizen that wants to make sure our up close and personal access to the leaders of this project remains intact. </div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 10, 2015, at 9:18 PM, John McCall via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 10, 2015, at 7:41 PM, Frederick Kellison-Linn via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px;"><div class=""><div class="">The language itself uses many abbreviations as its keywords. If you search for 'var' on web, for example, you won't easily find it stands for 'variable'. Does it mean it violates the guidelines?</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Actually, a Google search for just ‘var’ yields results pointing to JavaScript, C#, and HTML on the first page. A search for ‘init’ immediately describes the init process on Unix systems, as well as many other programming related results. Following any of these will let you understand the meaning of ‘init’ or ‘var’ pretty quickly. OTOH, ‘subs’ gives lots of results for sandwiches, but nothing programming related.</span><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">As a concert example of confusion that can arise, String implements subscript(), but ‘subs’ could just as easily stand for ‘substring’ in this context.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>“var", “func", and “struct" are exceptions to the general rule because they’re so prominent; even novice Swift programmers will quickly learn these three concepts. “subscript” is probably at least three orders of magnitude less common, and many programmers will not be immediately familiar with it, so it’s far more important to be clear than succinct.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">John.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">FKL</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 10, 2015, at 10:09 PM, Feijian Sun via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Thanks for your suggestion! <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But you're talking about the guidelines for Swift API Design while I'm proposing a keyword change in the language itself. I think they are not the same subjects.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><hr id="stopSpelling" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sethfri@gmail.com" class="">sethfri@gmail.com</a><br class="">Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:58:45 -0800<br class="">Subject: Re: [swift-evolution] Proposal for Replacing Keyword "subscript" with "subs"<br class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:feijian_sun@hotmail.com" class="">feijian_sun@hotmail.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jackl@apple.com" class="">jackl@apple.com</a><br class="">CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""><br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">I encourage you to read the <a href="https://swift.org/documentation/api-design-guidelines.html" target="_blank" class="">Swift API Design Guidelines</a>, as there are a couple of things there that discourage what you are suggesting:<div class=""><ul class=""><li class="">"<strong class="">Clarity is more important than brevity</strong>. Although Swift code can be compact, it is a <em class="">non-goal</em> to enable the smallest possible code with the fewest characters. Brevity in Swift code, where it occurs, is a side-effect of the strong type system and features that naturally reduce boilerplate."</li><li class="" style="padding: 0px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><strong class="">Avoid abbreviations</strong>. Abbreviations, especially non-standard ones, are effectively terms-of-art, because understanding depends on correctly translating them into their non-abbreviated forms.</div><blockquote class="" style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 2em; border-left-width: 3px; border-left-color: rgb(243, 243, 243); border-left-style: solid; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">The intended meaning for any abbreviation you use should be easily found by a web search.</div></blockquote></li></ul><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class="">Seth</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="ecxgmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="">On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:52 PM Feijian Sun via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Thank you for responding so late!<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree with you that "subs" is not very obvious for subscript. While learning swift, I have a feeling that it contains so many long words as the keywords, such as</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">fallthrough, dynamicType, associativity, convenience, nonmutating, precedence, etc..</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I understand there is a need for clarity. But I think it's also important to keep a concise and simple naming style where it's possible.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks again.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><hr class="">Subject: Re: [swift-evolution] Proposal for Replacing Keyword "subscript" with "subs"<br class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jackl@apple.com" target="_blank" class="">jackl@apple.com</a><br class="">Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:22:55 -0800<br class="">CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:feijian_sun@hotmail.com" target="_blank" class="">feijian_sun@hotmail.com</a></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><br class="">It’s non-obvious to me that “subs” is short for subscript, whereas “init” and “func” have only one obvious expansion.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jack <br class=""><div class=""><blockquote class=""><div class="">On Dec 10, 2015, at 6:12 PM, Feijian Sun via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div dir="ltr" class=""><span class="" style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; line-height: 21.3px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Hello, </span><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I have a proposal to replace the long keyword "subscript" with the shorter version, "subs". The idea is to keep the concise naming style on the language keywords, like "init" and "func".</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">So, Instead of:</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">subscript(index: Int) -> Int {</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> ... ...</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">}</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">we could simply do:</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">subs(index: Int) -> Int{</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"> ... ...</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;">}</div></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Does this mean a big change on the parser side? what do you think?</div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class="" style="line-height: 21.3px;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 21.3px; color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-size: 15px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Thank you!</div><div dir="ltr" class=""></div></div></div><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=fPHCHxM8OEqkFI0LoY8YMuXDKRTx6ILsXcJMmyHEOCKoTIfmBG-2BB29EKJ66isdwzGloc7ZFX7-2BF4OLFKGhYR452GcWvMK0zfSjEY7yDYXwTU-2BqOF3eg0yWlwBqzUBGHwi6g1BOj7opXk2sLJPbrnwlBuFcyEcyjSnpyPqmtTNTT3mulfq22DLIXezmou8RS-2Fu8xZDmt9bQjdElFmd01-2F3yStFIKMb-2FJgynEvhIuAqv0-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" class="" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; 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border-width: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; padding: 0px !important;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">swift-evolution mailing list</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></div></blockquote></div><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=1Ry8ov4zuU66O51YNcjYWfetYkdjZrv2dA74A3DLMgneM5MFkneKPpS9p2BjShluCQpjgMblG-2BEFvRlZZQ-2FDm6i9VYxKTaTiDX-2BUsL7k8uTn89RLPJ3QvybbAfC641Vo899GyaiKe8bGQ6xCpcEBQqd3RjInjCdG2LxWBvSKfH2wBlsmYleNvMOqZ7B7JFFPeOqUEbDIrZmYAVRD8T5HWg-3D-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; height: 1px !important; width: 1px !important; border-width: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; padding: 0px !important;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">swift-evolution mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>