<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Without commenting on the rest of the proposal, Swift is not about verbosity. From the <a href="https://swift.org/documentation/api-design-guidelines.html#fundamentals" class="">API Design Guidelines</a> on <a href="http://Swift.org" class="">Swift.org</a>:</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div class="">• <b class="">Clarity at the point of use is your most important goal.</b> Code is read far more than it is written.</div></div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div class="">• <b class="">Clarity is more important than brevity.</b> Although Swift code can be compact, it is a non-goal to enable the smallest possible code with the fewest characters. Brevity in Swift code, where it occurs, is a side-effect of the strong type system and features that naturally reduce boilerplate.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'd say the same should apply to the language itself.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jordan</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 6, 2015, at 15:52, Yichen Cao via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">But swift is all about verbosity (with method naming and such brought from obj-c), having self is much clearer. <br class=""><br class="">Yichen</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">On Dec 7, 2015, at 06:55, Nick Shelley <<a href="mailto:nickmshelley@gmail.com" class="">nickmshelley@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">I like that self is only required in closures because it serves as a good reminder that there are memory and safety implications with using self in a closure, such as creating retain cycles or having the closure run after self has been deallocated.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I can't seem to find an official Apple Swift style guide, but github's (<a href="https://github.com/github/swift-style-guide" class="">https://github.com/github/swift-style-guide</a>) suggests only using self in closures with the rationale: "This makes the capturing semantics of self stand out more in closures, and avoids verbosity elsewhere."</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Yichen Cao<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:ycao@me.com" target="_blank" class="">ycao@me.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;" class="">Teaching wise, its much less confusing for self to be required so students don't mix up instance properties and local vars. Especially when self is required in closures, it confuses students. If self is mandatory for all instance properties, it would be so much clearer and much easier to read.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Yichen</span></div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 5, 2015, at 18:11,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution-request@swift.org" target="_blank" class="">swift-evolution-request@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Re: Proposal: Re-instate mandatory self for</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: pre-wrap; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">accessing</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> instance properties and functions (David Hart)</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-evolution mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></blockquote><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=ZEz4qHYnXhPr3bBPu-2FxP4tN3HfWKL-2FtJpqkQ0gkOVSDJZZhnaX2xRGJyILuExSiS0SbkkzdwN6ZUVolvDaNrx4loyV3yR-2B0Z9nBDZUgSHuU5bbdcJatd56p8pcxlrKE2QHyU9RiNmuC2R8GcPoSWLXTnQnlIkAAI9HymW8VopKcZd8HUnxlXb9MNc94MfZkrw0FE72jHhXv2YN2dOWbKwoVtYkaC-2BL9ycgDTjdWE36k-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" style="font-family: Helvetica; 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