<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">This is not something anyone else can evaluate, as you haven’t shared details on your alternate proposal.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-DW</div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">In thinking about this further I think I can summarize my position pretty concisely. </div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">A criteria that has been used quite a bit in the feature removal threads and proposals is "if this feature was not already in the language would we add it". I am using a variation of this criteria and asking "if Swift had a feature facilitating more flexible initialization and we could use that feature with Cocoa would we still want to add setup closures?". I don't think we would.<br class=""><br class="">Sent from my iPad</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">On Dec 6, 2015, at 8:04 PM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">I do agree that current approaches are a bit ugly, that they are common in Cocoa code, and that the proposal cleans this up. I would even enjoy the cleaner syntax in my own code if the feature was adopted.</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, I share Jacob's thought that focusing on improving initialization flexibility is where we should focus. I think it is a better use of our time, effort and language feature "budget". This might be a more complex problem to solve, but the payoff is much larger in the end.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ideally instances should be fully configured for their intended use when initialization completes. I view the *need* for post-initialization setup as a deficiency in the language, the interface of the type, or both (even if a type must expose members that are mutated by users during the lifetime of an instance it should still be possible to fully configure an instance for its initial use during initialization). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If we can remove the aforementioned deficiency we will not need "setup closures". Doing this will require a language feature as well as a way to take advantage of the new feature when using Cocoa (probably through the Objective-C API import mechanism).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We obviously need to begin with the language feature so that is where I'm focusing right now. I plan to write a first draft of a proposal soon.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All of this aside, I am still interest in hearing about additional use cases for the "method cascade" idea. If it is more broadly applicable I might find it more worthwhile.<br class=""><br class=""><div class="">Sent from my iPhone</div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></div></body></html>