<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Swift’s biggest issue preventing it from being a good teaching or learning language is its still rather poor error messaging, especially when the compiler becomes confused about types. Aside from that, type inference serves to remove the immediate need to learn about types for the beginner.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jon Shier</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">No, I don't. I think Python's biggest appeal to new programmers is the fact that it has such a great standard library, making it really easy to do whatever you want to do without figuring out how to find or add in external dependencies.</span><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Anyways, mistyped Python code still breaks, it just breaks at runtime instead of compile time. In fact, I'd argue that this is even less beginner friendly, since you might write a function that works with some inputs and then inexplicably breaks with others.</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Austin<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 5, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Amir Michail <<a href="mailto:a.michail@me.com" class="">a.michail@me.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 5, 2015, at 7:05 PM, Austin Zheng via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">ml><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class="">I disagree with the idea that a type system is too much of a hurdle for beginner programmers to overcome.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Don’t you think that Python currently provides a better introduction to programming due to its simplicity?</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Austin</div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 5, 2015, at 4:01 PM, Kevin Lundberg via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">This is somewhat possible today on Apple platforms with AnyObject. You can call any objc-visible method on AnyObject and it will compile, and the return type will also be AnyObject (I don't recall if the return type is optional as well or not). This doesn't work with value types, but neither does id in objc.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Having a more complete lax typed mode similar to Python or php I think is of limited usefulness, would add too much complexity to the language, and yield too much uncertainty about any given piece of swift code. <br class=""><br class="">--<div class="">Kevin Lundberg</div></div><div class=""><br class="">On Dec 5, 2015, at 6:50 PM, Adrian Kashivskyy via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">I can't believe I'm seeing a proposal to remove type safety, one of the fundamental features of Swift...<br class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Regards,</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Adrian Kashivskyy</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">iOS Developer at Netguru</div></div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Wiadomość napisana przez Amir Michail via swift-evolution <<a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a>> w dniu 05.12.2015, o godz. 20:51:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">Python is still easier than Swift for beginning programmers. But maybe such a mode can allow Swift to be used by beginners also?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">____________________________________________</em>_ swift-evolution mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org" class="">swift-evolution@swift.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution</a></p><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=Q0Y0L54uOhrrHtFzGFlMmzHCkni7p1uaN05dut7Y5S4G0GoEQGYV8zFSQbCSyNzU-2FAsa7j-2FUD3WXyQP46SbPHF8I6gI8vOq1IfZwYjBjlDpnWX1CWqLulrsA4gW02al8NlT9Bm5WyXG2BRqocKtZ8erDDmsrDWjbrBOIGFzMtTuEZi7IpwltZomsodaeNR3-2BT3C9TyVOILgS3N59QcSdEaEDCZNBlz-2F1efwHoJ9cx7A-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" class="" style="height: 1px !important; width: 1px !important; border-width: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; padding: 0px !important;"></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=AxVqvhl7qaAz-2FE20TrrgNT-2F44XdgxmRgRA416dJII-2BS3-2FkEQHhrM-2FxVCnGh0OhFlxVgBJevmZT2Ox1Kqs8GzDY-2BGBcaH5HUeTERBgLIMUNTnJF5-2BVco96wzBdMNECdp8w3uYWiEYzfa0dt-2BxsLE4POWwEGgIf2a3TOopk7Cku3KrCu9n8eYdMWQjL2PAabVP4eUx1HfRa94wYcE29tv7Zh4J4umLpxRq37P4OOSEU40-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" class="" style="height: 1px !important; 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