<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Let’s take a look at C# which Microsoft designed to replace C++ MFC. The compatibility is never removed although C# itself is pretty complete already. During early days (2002) lots of components in C# are stubs calling back to MFC but nevertheless this presented a more or less complete library set to the user and allowed the language to gain traction - so many traction that now people demand it to be ported to multiple platforms.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Removing Objective-C compatibility in Swift (which does not even have a complete set of libraries yet) in this stage would undermine its usability and the completeness of the libraries, and when the project finally matured a bad reputation of “incomplete support” would already be out there, hampering its use.<div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 4, 2015, at 18:33, Alex Blewitt <<a href="mailto:alex.blewitt@gmail.com" class="">alex.blewitt@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">A more interesting question would be: is Swift designed to ultimately replace Objective-C? If so, baking in compatibility from the outset of the open source version would probably be going in the wrong direction.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Alex<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 4 Dec 2015, at 11:12, ChanMaxthon <<a href="mailto:xcvista@me.com" class="">xcvista@me.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Then just please leave some stub there so communities can plug their own bridging into Swift gracefully (that is, not as an out-of-tree patch)</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">My idea:</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">1) a pure C header file, swift-compat.h describing the interface the community-provided bridging mechanism should implement besides objc/runtime.h, objc/message.h and objc/objc-arc.h, and the associated documentation describing what the community should do, in a even more liberal license like MIT or 3c/BSD</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">2) The build system checking for a compatible, community-provided libswift-compat.so during compilation and enable the community-provided bridging mechanism if present.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">3) Compile-time issues can be solved similarly using libswift-repl-compat.so</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">When building Swift without a compatible community-provided Foundation reimplementation present everything here will be built, like what we are doing here. When building with such a library set and the corresponding libswift-compat.so present only the Swift standard library will be built, linking to the community-provided Objective-C runtime (which is also used as the Swift runtime through the Objective-C bridge) and take advantage of the community-provided Foundation framework through bridging.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">Sent from my iPhone</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">On Dec 4, 2015, at 16:14, David Hart <<a href="mailto:david@hartbit.com" class="">david@hartbit.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><div class="">The improvements to the Objective-C bridge in Swift 3 are definitely appreciated but are just cosmetics (they only affect naming). What about the fact that NSURL in your example, being an immutable type, would be better represented by a value type in Swift? Don't misunderstand me, I applaud the fact that corelibs exists, and understand that Foundation has a lot of great ideas, but I would have preferred seeing it exist as a community hobby project instead of an official Swift project and have the community instead concentrate on a core library that embraces value types, generics, protocols, etc...</div><div class=""><br class="">On 04 Dec 2015, at 00:14, Tony Parker <<a href="mailto:anthony.parker@apple.com" class="">anthony.parker@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Hi David,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Fundamentally, we believe that the Foundation library is part of Swift. We also believe that it would be a mistake to throw out the many years of experience that it brings with it. In areas where there are impedance mismatches between the existing API and what feels “Swifty”, we can improve the API of Foundation to make it as great to use there as it is in Objective-C. The first step of that is our heavy involvement with the Swift 3 naming guidelines here: </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://swift.org/documentation/api-design-guidelines.html" class="">https://swift.org/documentation/api-design-guidelines.html</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hope this helps,</div><div class="">- Tony</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 3, 2015, at 3:09 PM, David Hart <<a href="mailto:david@hartbit.com" class="">david@hartbit.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Tony,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Like Jacob, I would have preferred a completely original corelibs library that uses that clean sheet to be as bold in library design as the standard library is. Why would that direction go against the goal of begin "as standards compliant as possible”? it would just mean that Apple Platform developers would have the option of using the Objective-C bridge to talk to Objective-C Foundation or use the “swifter” corelibs.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">David.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 03 Dec 2015, at 23:33, Tony Parker <<a href="mailto:anthony.parker@apple.com" class="">anthony.parker@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Hi Jacob,</span><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 3, 2015, at 2:23 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch <<a href="mailto:jtbandes@gmail.com" class="">jtbandes@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Chris Lattner<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:clattner@apple.com" target="_blank" class="">clattner@apple.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><br class="">As others have surmised, the goal for the Swift Foundation project is to provide a pure-swift implementation (which reuses widely-available C libraries) of important Foundation APIs that do *not* depend on the Objective-C runtime. Reusing GNUstep, Cocotron, or even Apple’s existing Foundation implementation didn’t allow us to achieve those goals, so we didn’t go with those approaches.<br class=""></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is great, but is the goal also to exactly duplicate all the idiosyncrasies of the Obj-C Foundation?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Quiz: what's the result of <span class="">NSURL</span><span class="">(string:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="">"<a href="http://one/two;three/four" class="">http://one/two;three/four</a>"</span><span class="">)?.</span><span class="">URLByAppendingPathComponent</span><span class="">(</span><span class="">"five"</span><span class="">)</span> ?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If, as I would hope, corelibs-foundation is an opportunity to make simpler APIs that resolve some of these weirdnesses, then should the class names (NSURL, NSFileHandle, etc.) really be the same?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=U7z7oSqRMSwdl2rYt9JJ4zIFaeg4R-2FxExg9xndDuCbw6pu8mPlP6tk2M55gscvSbsiO0Xh4-2FilS31WP15uOf9HDzgFud3tZy-2FWLrVkkSRF5Kby67wyR6KKwgn-2Bfwqi8i-2F4mqoPA7tbsSW0njDeoeKc0TeejIT1-2FWXf6JKtZk6wlsFCB2-2FjrKTe3-2BOpeAW0f3DjTOzFd-2FEsLE99ALsh7V-2BftCARiWjHNKGqjyq9nDkbk-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" class="" style="height: 1px !important; width: 1px !important; border-width: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; padding: 0px !important;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>_______________________________________________<br class="">swift-corelibs-dev mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:swift-corelibs-dev@swift.org" class="">swift-corelibs-dev@swift.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-corelibs-dev" class="">https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-corelibs-dev</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">I think NSURL is actually a pretty great example of an API that we want to be the same on all platforms. There is quite a bit of logic backing it (along with something like NSURLComponents). Check out some of it here:</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="https://github.com/apple/swift-corelibs-foundation/blob/master/CoreFoundation/URL.subproj/CFURLComponents_URIParser.c" class="">https://github.com/apple/swift-corelibs-foundation/blob/master/CoreFoundation/URL.subproj/CFURLComponents_URIParser.c</a></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">(and that CF code is reflected up into NSURLComponents)</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">It’s tricky stuff, and the goal is to get it as standards compliant as possible. If we use this implementation for all Swift clients then we can get a consistent answer everywhere - and even better, fix bugs everywhere at the same time.</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">So if you find some of the interface confusing (or wrong), then file a bug for us at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://bugs.swift.org/" class="">bugs.swift.org</a>. We can take this opportunity to try to make it better for everyone.</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Thanks,</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">- Tony</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><img src="https://u2002410.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=nE9rxSXA5G4kxsTVkgv43hXwizS3O2z60WweqomIrdgaZQD-2B8CXb1B8NNdfP9fZYsAePl7xa2Yq-2BwftdPxfNGwtGXHGSKsWt0K4gikiPZ8aXK3Y6LsB3cOeabRS78keMwkrXCfNS4mrQ0HYyoF0EvBt9JyDBAVp6EvzqUT4Q1HXMt872HgHQtBkDYYwxNAc-2BbSRu3arjps14ByZCA6YlXpGIZM1WCu9CkkIjaKhYXRk-3D" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; height: 1px !important; width: 1px !important; border-width: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; padding: 0px !important;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;"> </span><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">swift-corelibs-dev mailing list</span><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="mailto:swift-corelibs-dev@swift.org" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">swift-corelibs-dev@swift.org</a><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-corelibs-dev" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; 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