[swift-evolution] A path forward on rationalizing unicode identifiers and operators
xiaodi.wu at gmail.com
Mon Oct 2 23:20:40 CDT 2017
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 23:11 David Sweeris <davesweeris at mac.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 2017, at 7:57 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:04 PM, David Sweeris <davesweeris at mac.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 2, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 19:28 Ethan Tira-Thompson via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>> I’m all for fixing pressing issues requested by Xiaodi, but beyond that
>>> I request we give a little more thought to the long term direction.
>>> My 2¢ is I’ve been convinced that very few characters are “obviously”
>>> either a operator or identifier across all contexts where they might be
>>> used. Thus relegating the vast majority of thousands of ambiguous
>>> characters to committee to decide a single global usage. But that is both
>>> a huge time sink and fundamentally flawed in approach due to the contextual
>>> dependency of who is using them.
>>> For example, if a developer finds a set of symbols which perfectly
>>> denote some niche concept, do you really expect the developer to submit a
>>> proposal and wait months/years to get the characters classified and then a
>>> new compiler version to be distributed, all so that developer can adopt
>>> his/her own notation?
>> The Unicode Consortium already has a document describing which Unicode
>> characters are suitable identifiers in programming languages, with guidance
>> as to how to customize that list around the edges. This is already adopted
>> by other programming languages. So, with little design effort, that task is
>> not only doable but largely done.
>> As to operators, again, I am of the strong opinion that making it
>> possible for developers to adopt any preferred notation for any purpose (a)
>> is fundamentally incompatible with the division between operators and
>> identifiers, as I believe you’re saying here; and (b) should be a non-goal
>> from the outset. The only task, so far as I can tell, left to do is to
>> identify what pragmatic set of (mostly mathematical) symbols are used as
>> operators in the wider world and are likely to be already used in Swift
>> code or part of common use cases where an operator is clearly superior to
>> alternative spellings. In my view, the set of valid operator characters not
>> only shouldn’t require parsing or import directives, but should be small
>> enough to be knowable by memory.
>> The set notation operators should be identifiers, then?
> Set notation operators aren't valid identifier characters; to be clear,
> the alternative to being a valid operator character would be simply not
> listing that character among valid operator or identifier characters.
>> Because the impression I got from the Set Algebra proposal a few months
>> ago is that there are a lot of people who’ve never even seen those
>> operators, let alone memorized them.
> That's not the impression I got; the argument was that these symbols are
> hard to type and _not more recognizable that the English text_, which is
> certainly a plausible argument and the appropriate bar for deciding on a
> standard library API name.
> MHO is that the bar for a potentially valid operator character _for
> potential use in third-party APIs_ needn't be so high that we demand the
> character to be more recognizable to most people than alternative
> notations. Instead, we can probably justify including a character if it is
> (a) plausibly useful for some relatively common Swift use case and (b) at
> least somewhat recognizable for many people. Since set algebra has a
> well-accepted mathematical notation that's taught (afaict) at the _high
> school_ level if not earlier, and since set algebra functions are a part of
> the standard library, that surely meets those bars of usefulness and
> Maybe they've started teaching it earlier than when I went through
> school... I don't think I learned it until Discrete Math, which IIRC was a
> 2nd or 3rd year course at my college and only required for Math, CS, and
> maybe EE majors. Anyway, WRT a), if Swift achieves its "take over the
> world" goal, *all* use cases will be Swift use cases. WRT b), "many" as
> in the numerical quantity or "many" as in the percentage? There are
> probably millions of people who recognize calculus's operators, but there
> are 7.5 *billion* people in the world.
> Keep in mind that Swift already goes far above and beyond in terms of
> Yep, that's is a large part of why I'm such a Swift fan :-D
> in that: (a) it allows overloading of almost all standard operators; (b)
> it permits the definition of effectively an infinite number of custom
> operators using characters found in standard operators; (c) it permits the
> definition of custom precedences for custom operators; and (d) it
> additionally permits the use of a wide number of Unicode characters for
> custom operators. Most systems programming languages don't even allow (a),
> let alone (b) or (c). Even dramatically curtailing (d) leaves Swift with an
> unusually expansive support for custom operators.
> Yes, but many of those custom operators won't have a clear meaning because
> operators are rarely limited to pre-existing symbols like "++++++++" (which
> doesn't mean anything at all AFAIK), so operators that are widely known *within
> some field* probably won't be widely known to the general public, which,
> IIUC, seems to be your standard for inclusion(?). Please let me know if
> that's not your position... I hate being misunderstood probably more than
> the next person, and I wouldn't want to be guilty of that myself.
> What it does conclusively foreclose is something which ought to be stated
> firmly as a non-goal, which is the typesetting of arbitrary mathematical
> equations as valid Swift code.
> I'm not arguing for adding arbitrary *typesetting* (not now anyway...
> maybe in a decade or so when more important things have been dealt with).
> What I *am* arguing for is the ability to treat operators from <pick your
> field> as operators within Swift. As much as possible, anyway.
Yes, and to be clear, I am arguing that this should be an explicit non-goal
at the moment for arbitrary "pick your fields"; instead, work for Swift 5
should address some pragmatic, fixed, and limited set of plausible use
cases for Swift.
> Quite simply, Swift is not math; simple addition doesn't even behave as it
> does in grade-school arithmetic,
> Perhaps not for the built-in numeric types, but how do you know somebody
> won't create a type which does behave that way?
> so there is no sense in attempting to shoehorn calculus into the language.
> (I'm assuming you mean calculus's syntax, not calculus itself, right?) What's
> the point of having unicode support if half the symbols will get rejected
> because they aren't well-known enough? Sometimes only having token support
> for something can be worse than no support at all from the PoV of someone
> trying to do something that relies on it.
> In any case, I only meant to point out a use-case for lookalikes, not
> spark a debate about whether we should support more than a handful of
> operators... shall we consider the idea withdrawn?
> - Dave Sweeris
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