[swift-evolution] Type-based ‘private’ access within a file

Tue Apr 4 01:42:06 CDT 2017

Sent from my iPhone

> On 4 Apr 2017, at 02:16, Jonathan Hull via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
> 
> This is very disappointing.  We can’t realistically get access controls correct until we have a story around submodules, etc.  Those things are out of scope for Swift 4, and we can’t change access controls after Swift 4. Catch-22.
> 
> We should hold off on doing anything now, and redesign holistically when we do the rest.
> 
> -1. This just adds tires to the tire fire.  I feel like it only adds to the confusion between private and fileprivate by making them less distinct from one another.  If we have to make a change now (because we won’t be able to later… which I would strongly ask you to reconsider), then I would go with the renaming proposal.  It is not at all ideal, but it would at least make things a little better long-term if we are to be stuck with the design. 

I actually think this good slight enhancement to private makes sense and brings it in line with many requests we have gotten during our earlier discussion. I think that we are making a mountain out of a molehill by pushing back against this as if it would rush submodules or a holistic design sooner... Also, it is a minor non source breaking extension, not something huge and potentially damaging to the language.

> 
> I regret pretty much all of the proposals in Swift 3 which were accepted based on “We have to do this now. or else…”   Pretty much universally, it would have been better to wait.
> 
> 
>>> On Apr 3, 2017, at 2:22 PM, John McCall via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 3, 2017, at 5:21 PM, David Hart <david at hartbit.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 3 Apr 2017, at 23:19, John McCall <rjmccall at apple.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2017, at 5:11 PM, David Hart via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 3 Apr 2017, at 22:54, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matthew Johnson <matthew at anandabits.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I’m concerned that we will have access control changes in a future version yet again, when light-weight modules, or other type of enforced namespace is introduced. Does the core team have any foresight on how this change would interact with such things? I had the same concern for SE-0159 as well. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There’s a implicit drawback to all access control changes that migrator/fix-its cannot fix: we organize our code with tools in the language. Some colleague of mine had came up with schemes that combines file scope and Swift 3 `private` to hide details among separate protocol extensions, for example. Code ends up in certain places for a reason and updating access control invalidate those reasons.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I hesitate to support any changes until we have some ideas for what “ultimate glory” looks like.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1.  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If we must make a change in Swift 4, the only change I can support for Swift 4 is renaming the existing access levels.  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We don’t have to make a change in Swift 4. If there’s a change that can resolve this issue, great…
>>>>> 
>>>>> I still think this is a worthwhile goals.
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> That would cause some churn but can be automated and has no semantic impact.  I feel strongly that the semantics of access control should remain the same until submodules and access control can be considered together as part of the theme of a larger Swift release.  I believe the churn caused by continuing to poke at the semantics of access control without addressing the broader issues would be a mistake that would cause further frustration in the community.  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> … but if not, then let’s shelve access control changes until some time when we can considered it holistically with something like submodules, as you note above.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Won’t making big modifications later be even more problematic than now, in the name of source stability?
>>>> 
>>>> Yes.  Big changes along these lines will not be considered later.  At best, it would be possible to "re-cast" existing behaviors in light of new features — that is, significantly changing *how we talk about those behaviors*, and changing how we understand them in the broader language, but not actually changing the behaviors themselves.
>>> 
>>> That’s why I don’t buy the “lets postpone this discussion to a future submodule design” argument. Let’s get this in a reasonable state now :)
>> 
>> I agree.  This is why we asked swift-evolution to consider this last tweak: it is realistically the last opportunity to do it.
>> 
>> John.
>> 
>>> 
>>>> John.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As others have already pointed out, code has been developed and organized with the new scoped access model in mind.  I think the frustration over a semantically neutral, fully automated migration to new names would be pretty minimal 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The core team felt strongly that we couldn’t change these keywords. Source stability is important to Swift 4, and “don’t break source compatibility so much” is one of the top requests we hear from Swift developers, much more so than requests for specific new language features.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> and certainly much less than the frustration over the suggested semantic change.  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This isn’t clear to me. There could certainly be frustration over the suggested semantic change, for a number of reasons:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> * It’s not as “tight” a meaning of private as the current scope-based private.
>>>>>> * It means we have a hybrid type-based/scope-based model.
>>>>>> * It’s the third meaning of ‘private’ in three years.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> However, it is unlikely to break code (one would need to construct an ambiguity between two private declarations in different extensions of the same type in the same file), and causes zero code churn, because it’s widening the meaning of “private”, not changing it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 	- Doug
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2017, at 11:34 AM, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hello Swift Community,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In rejecting SE-0159, the core team described a potential direction we would like to investigate for “private” access control that admits a limited form of type-based access control within files. The core team is seeking some discussion here and a motivated volunteer to put together a proposal along these lines for review in the Swift 4 time-frame (i.e., very soon). To be clear, the core team it’s sure this is the right direction to go… but it appears promising and we would *love* to be able to settle the access-control issue.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The design, specifically, is that a “private” member declared within a type “X” or an extension thereof would be accessible from:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 	* An extension of “X” in the same file
>>>>>>>>> 	* The definition of “X”, if it occurs in the same file
>>>>>>>>> 	* A nested type (or extension thereof) of one of the above that occurs in the same file
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This design has a number of apparent benefits:
>>>>>>>>> 	+ “private” becomes the right default for “less than whole module” visibility, and aligns well with Swift coding style that divides a type’s definition into a number of extensions.
>>>>>>>>> 	+ “fileprivate” remains for existing use cases, but now it’s use it more rare, which has several advantages:
>>>>>>>>> 		+ It fits well with the "progressive disclosure” philosophy behind Swift: you can use public/internal/private for a while before encountering and having to learn about “fileprivate”   (note: we thought this was going to be true of SE-0025, but we were clearly wrong)
>>>>>>>>> 		+ When “fileprivate” occurs, it means there’s some interesting coupling between different types in the same file. That makes fileprivate a useful alert to the reader rather than, potentially, something that we routinely use and overlook so that we can separate implementations into extensions.
>>>>>>>>> 	+ “private” is more closely aligned with other programming languages that use type-based access control, which can help programmers just coming to Swift. When they reach for “private”, they’re likely to get something similar to what they expect—with a little Swift twist due to Swift’s heavy use of extensions.
>>>>>>>>> 	+ Loosening the access restrictions on “private” is unlikely to break existing code.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There are likely some drawbacks:
>>>>>>>>> 	- Developers using patterns that depend on the existing lexically-scoped access control of “private” may find this new interpretation of “private” to be insufficiently strict
>>>>>>>>> 	- Swift’s access control would go from “entirely lexical” to “partly lexical and partly type-based”, which can be viewed as being more complicated
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? Volunteer?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 	- Doug
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>>>>>>> 
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