[swift-evolution] [Draft][Proposal] Formalized Ordering

Matthew Johnson matthew at anandabits.com
Fri Jul 22 21:28:58 CDT 2016


> On Jul 22, 2016, at 9:26 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Matthew Johnson <matthew at anandabits.com <mailto:matthew at anandabits.com>> wrote:
> 
>> On Jul 22, 2016, at 9:17 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu at gmail.com <mailto:xiaodi.wu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jul 22, 2016, at 9:04 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> on Fri Jul 22 2016, Matthew Johnson <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:37 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution
>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution
>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>> 
>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> on Fri Jul 22 2016, Daniel Duan <daniel-AT-duan.org <http://daniel-at-duan.org/>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 22, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution
>>>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> on Fri Jul 22 2016, Daniel Duan
>>>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 22, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution
>>>>>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> on Thu Jul 21 2016, Duan
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Great proposal. I want to second that areSame may mislead user to
>>>>>>>>>> think this is about identity.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I like areEquivalent() but there may be better names.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It really *is* about identity as I posted in a previous message.  But
>>>>>>>>> that doesn't change the fact that areEquivalent might be a better name.
>>>>>>>>> It's one of the things we considered; it just seemed long for no real
>>>>>>>>> benefit.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If the addresses of the arguments aren’t being used, then we don’t consider
>>>>>>>> them part of their *identity*. I can follow this logic. My fear is most users
>>>>>>>> won’t make this leap on their own and get the same initial impression as I did.
>>>>>>>> It's entirely possible this fear is unfounded. Some educated bikesheding
>>>>>>>> wouldn't hurt here IMO :)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, it's still a very real question whether we ought to have the
>>>>>>> additional API surface implied by areSame, or wether we should collapse
>>>>>>> it with ===.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To spell this out (because I had to think about it for a second): === will be derived from
>>>>>> <=>,
>>>>>> but also becomes default implementation for ==, which remains open for
>>>>>> customization.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I was imagining roughly this (untested):
>>>>> 
>>>>>  /// Two references are identical if they refer to the same
>>>>>  /// instance.
>>>>>  ///
>>>>>  /// - Note: Classes with a more-refined notion of “identical”
>>>>>  ///   should conform to `Identifiable` and implement `===`.
>>>>>  func ===(lhs: AnyObject, rhs: AnyObject) -> Bool {
>>>>>    ObjectIdentifier(lhs) == ObjectIdentifier(rhs)
>>>>>  }
>>>>> 
>>>>>  /// Supports testing that two values of `Self` are identical
>>>>>  ///
>>>>>  /// If `a` and `b` are of type `Self`, `a === b` means that
>>>>>  /// `a` and `b` are interchangeable in most code.  A conforming
>>>>>  /// type can document that specific observable characteristics
>>>>>  /// (such as the `capacity` of an `Array`) are inessential and
>>>>>  /// thus not to be considered as part of the interchangeability
>>>>>  /// guarantee.
>>>>>  ///
>>>>>  /// - Requires: `===` induces an equivalence relation over
>>>>>  ///   instances.
>>>>>  /// - Note: conforming types will gain an `==` operator that
>>>>>  ///   forwards to `===`.
>>>>>  /// - Note: Types that require domain-specific `==`
>>>>>  ///   implementations with different semantics (e.g. floating
>>>>>  ///   point) should define a more-specific overload of `==`,
>>>>>  ///   which will be used in contexts where the static type is
>>>>>  ///   known to the compiler.
>>>>>  /// - Note: Generic code should usually use `==` to compare
>>>>>  ///   conforming instances; that will always dispatch to `===`
>>>>>  ///   and will be unaffected by more specific overloads of
>>>>>  ///   `==`.
>>>>>  protocol Identifiable { // née Equatable name is negotiable
>>>>>    func ===(_: Self, _: aSelf) -> Bool
>>>>>  }
>>>>> 
>>>>>  /// Default definition of `==` for Identifiable types.
>>>>>  func ==<T: Identifiable>(lhs: T, rhs: T) -> Bool {
>>>>>    return lhs === rhs
>>>>>  }
>>>>> 
>>>>>  /// Conforming types have a default total ordering.
>>>>>  ///
>>>>>  /// If `a` and `b` are of type `Self`, `a <=> b` means that
>>>>>  /// `a` and `b` are interchangeable in most code.  A conforming
>>>>>  /// type can document that specific observable characteristics
>>>>>  /// (such as the `capacity` of an `Array`) are inessential and
>>>>>  /// thus not to be considered as part of the interchangeability
>>>>>  /// guarantee.
>>>>>  ///
>>>>>  /// - Requires: `<=>` induces a total ordering over
>>>>>  ///   instances.
>>>>>  /// - Requires: the semantics of `<=>` are  consistent with
>>>>>  ///   those of `===`.  That is, `(a <=> b) == .equivalent`
>>>>>  ///   iff `a === b`.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For floating point, I'd hope that `a === b` if `(a <=> b) == .same` *but not iff*. This is to satisfy IEEE 754: "Comparisons shall ignore the sign of zero (so +0 = −0)”.
>>>> 
>>>> The point of this design is that `===` means identity and that `.same ` also means identity.
>>>> 
>>>> Since this is new territory I suppose we get to decide what identity
>>>> means for floating point.  Should +0 and -0 have the same identity or
>>>> not?  I’ll leave the answer to folks more knowledgable about numerics
>>>> than I.
>>> 
>>> It's settled law 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point#Total-ordering_predicate <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point#Total-ordering_predicate>
>>> :-)
>> 
>> Yes, assuming we want to define identity in terms of the IEEE definition of total ordering.
>> 
>> I see what you're saying here. That could work. Comparable `===` and Equatable `<=>` could do its own thing, and FloatingPoint `isTotallyOrdered(below:)` can preserve the IEEE definition of total ordering
> 
> Actually, I was hinting at your argument that `===` true iff `<=>` same shouldn’t be a semantic requirement of the protocols.
> 
> This is another option, but I don’t think it’s going to fly.  It seems reasonable to assume that `<=>` will have IEEE semantics.  We will trip a lot of people up if it doesn’t.  That’s a big reason we can’t consider changing floating point `==` to define an equivalence relation.
> 
> Actually, here I doubt it. The total ordering isn't exposed as part of any comparison operator defined in the IEEE spec. In fact, the total ordering wasn't introduced until a (fairly) recent IEEE revision, IIUC. Breaking `==` would definitely cause people to jump, but `<=>` needn't be the IEEE totalOrder predicate IMO.

I’ll let you make that case to Dave and Steve.  If you can convince them I won’t object!  :)

>  
> 
>> .
>>  
>>>>>  /// - Note: conforming types will gain `<`, `<=`, `>`, and `>=`
>>>>>  ///   operators defined in terms of `<=>`.
>>>>>  /// - Note: Types that require domain-specific `<`, etc.
>>>>>  ///   implementations with different semantics (e.g. floating
>>>>>  ///   point) should define more-specific overloads of those
>>>>>  ///   operators, which will be used in contexts where the
>>>>>  ///   static type is known to the compiler.
>>>>>  /// - Note: Generic code can freely use `<=>` or the traditional
>>>>>  ///   comparison operators to compare conforming instances;
>>>>>  ///   the result will always be supplied by `<=>`
>>>>>  ///   and will be unaffected by more specific overloads of
>>>>>  ///   the other operators.
>>>>>  protocol Comparable : Identifiable {
>>>>>    func <=> (lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Ordering
>>>>>  }
>>>>> 
>>>>>  /// Default implementations of `<`, `<=`, `>`, and `>=`.
>>>>>  extension Comparable {
>>>>>    static func <(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {
>>>>>      return (lhs <=> rhs) == .ascending
>>>>>    }
>>>>>    static func <=(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {
>>>>>      return (rhs <=> lhs) != .ascending
>>>>>    }
>>>>>    static func >(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {
>>>>>      return (lhs <=> rhs) == .descending
>>>>>    }
>>>>>    static func >=(lhs: Self, rhs: Self) -> Bool {
>>>>>      return (rhs <=> lhs) != .descending
>>>>>    }
>>>>>  }
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I like this idea. If we keep === as a separate thing, now users have 3 “opportunities” to define
>>>>>> equality. The must be few, if any, use cases for this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Would love to see if anyone on the list can give us an example. Otherwise we should make
>>>>>> areSame === again™!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Duan
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:32 PM, Robert Widmann via swift-evolution
>>>>>>>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Xiaodi Wu
>>>>>>>>>>>> <xiaodi.wu at gmail.com <mailto:xiaodi.wu at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:xiaodi.wu at gmail.com <mailto:xiaodi.wu at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is nice. Is `areSame()` being proposed because static `==` is
>>>>>>>>>>>> the status quo and you're trying to make the point that `==` in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> future need not guarantee the same semantics?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Yep!  Equivalence and equality are strictly very different things.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nit: I think the more common term in stdlib would be
>>>>>>>>>>>> `areEquivalent()`. Do you think `same` in that context (independent
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the word "ordering") might erroneously suggest identity?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> There is room for improvement here.  Keep ‘em coming.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Robert Widmann via
>>>>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Swift Community,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harlan Haskins, Jaden Geller, and I have been working on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proposal to clean up the semantics of ordering relations in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard library.  We have a draft that you can get as a gist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any feedback you might have about this proposal helps - though
>>>>>>>>>>>>> please keeps your comments on Swift-Evolution and not on the gist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~Robert Widmann
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>
>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>>
>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dave
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>>> <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>>
>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>>> <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution at swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution at swift.org>
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution <https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/attachments/20160722/a89523f9/attachment.html>


More information about the swift-evolution mailing list