[swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

[Xiaodi Wu]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Brandon Knope <bknope at me.com> wrote:

> How can it be unpersuasive? I can *show* you that keys that are easier to
> type/reach exist for a large majority of user’s.
>

As I pointed out, your results are flawed because there are two keys
frequently reached for in the vicinity of \ which are excluded from your
analysis. Those keys are delete/backspace and return/enter.


>
> I am not saying it is a good idea or not to replace \, but to pretend that
> there isn’t an inconvenience there is unfair when every other part of the
> language is put under a magnifying glass for the sake of grammar, newbie
> friendliness, or this or that, etc...
>
>
We've discussed why it's sensible grammar; there is no argument to be made
here about whether pressing one labeled key or another is friendlier to a
beginner.


> This is *measurable*…it just depends on whether it bothers people or not
> enough. Most other things are based on opinion, but this *can* be based on
> numbers and usability.
>

See above; you measured wrong...


> This is *something used by everyone*. The usability cost is there and it
> is real. Just because “well it is easy for me to type” does not mean that
> it is ideal. It also doesn’t mean that the current choice is the wrong
> choice either. But it still is important to discuss while we can.
>
> And yes a keyboard IS only so big, but the range to that bigness can be
> pretty… big.
>
> Also, $ is not the only option. There are still far easier keys to type
> than \.
> Brandon
>
> On Jun 21, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <
> swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>
>> Actually… we can go pretty scientific on this sort of thing and heat map
>> keyboard usage to get a better picture of how “usable” this is.
>>
>> I pasted a file that contains seven \’s in it and heat mapped it at
>> https://www.patrick-wied.at/projects/heatmap-keyboard/
>>
>> Even *with* several \’s throughout my source file the majority of my key
>> presses take place much closer to the $ key than the \ key.
>>
>> I think we can all argue about what is clearer or not, but I think for
>> the majority of us, the \ key is quite inconvenient compared to the keys
>> around where we type the most.
>>
>> I also ran several of iOS 10’s sample code through the heat map and
>> continue to get pretty similar results: the \ is much further from the
>> hottest part of the keyboard than the ones closer to where your hand
>> usually rests.
>>
>> Maybe this is flawed, but I think it is hard to argue that the \ is easy
>> to type when there are far more usable alternatives.
>>
>
> I'm rather unpersuaded by this line of argument. The keyboard is only so
> big; it's a stretch to say that any key is less than absolutely usable.
> Moreover, \ is next the delete key, which I presume you use frequently and
> find no difficulty in reaching.
>
> You know what *is* unusable though? Try finding the $ key on an
> international keyboard.
>
>
>> Brandon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Daniel Resnick via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and Brent mentioned: I
>> find '\(...)' easy to read, fine to type, and consistent with other string
>> escaping syntax.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution <
>> swift-evolution at swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > I find that typing \(var) is very disruptive to my typing flow. The
>>> more I code in Swift, the more I like it, but every time I'm coding and
>>> then have to hiccup while typing \ then ( causes me to be annoyed. I know,
>>> it's minor, but it isn't a key combination that flows quickly.
>>> >
>>> > I would much rather have $() or perhaps ${} (like Groovy lang) or
>>> perhaps @() to go along with other uses of @ throughout the language.
>>>
>>> Even though I'm used to Perl's and Ruby's interpolation syntaxes, I
>>> immediately liked `\(…)`. It's parsimonious: Rather than taking a third
>>> character (besides \ and ") to mean something special in a string literal,
>>> it reuses one of the existing ones. There's no need to escape a character
>>> you wouldn't otherwise have to touch, or to think of another character as
>>> "magical" in a string. It fits nicely with the rest of the syntax, with `\`
>>> indicating a special construct and then `()` delimiting an expression, just
>>> as they do elsewhere in the language. It's an elegant solution to a problem
>>> traditionally solved inelegantly. It's very Swifty in that way.
>>>
>>> > A shifted key, like $ or @, followed by another shifted key like (,
>>> allows for a much faster flow and they are much closer to the home keys
>>> than \ which is nearly as far from home keys as possible (and awkward).
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't have any trouble typing it personally. If you find yourself
>>> accidentally typing `\9` or `|(`, we could probably offer an error for the
>>> former or warning for the latter with a fix-it. But if you're complaining
>>> that it takes a tiny fraction of a second longer to type than `$(` would,
>>> then honestly, I just can't bring myself to care. Swift optimizes for code
>>> reading. If we wanted to optimize for code typing instead, we'd have a very
>>> different style.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brent Royal-Gordon
>>> Architechies
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> swift-evolution mailing list
>>> swift-evolution at swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>>>
>>
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